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I lost count after 200,003 rats :) Do rats serve a useful (for us) purpose there? If not, can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without ha

I lost count after 200,003 rats :) Do rats serve a useful (for us) purpose there? If not, can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without harming the entire ecosystem?

zimablue 8y ago
https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/13/8592817/rat-patrol-new-york-alberta-canada-south-georgia-eradication https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/13/8592817/rat-patrol-new-yo... The guys who do this professionally/successfully in a sparsely populated place with everyone helping and the advantage that rats can't survive outdoors don't think it's possible in cities. Big problems with poison: Rats are harder than you think to poison, they're both sceptical of new food and adapted to survive lots of poisons Evolution will work against you and select rats that don't eat or digest your new poison You will poison lots of things you don't intend to (wild animals, pets, humans). You can imagine an IOT solution in 50 years though (coordinating web of mechanical cats/ferrets with amazing smell/sight that just never stop hunting).
- ddorian43 8y ago
  Then you can change the target (Black Mirror: Metalhead)
  - pc86 8y ago
    One of my favorite episodes, honestly.
    - ss2003 8y ago
      It was important, but ultimately so depressing that it turned me off to the series.
      - dajohnson89 8y ago
        I know the feeling. I remember countless instances where I wanted to watch a new episode, but couldn't muster the courage to do so.
- arkitaip 8y ago
  No way an army of robot cats and ferrets can be used for malicious purposes. No way...
- adrianN 8y ago
  AI gun turrets in the sewers.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    Not quite there, but this thing is successful. It’s a self resetting trap, with its kill attracting more target species. Refilling if after ~25 kills is more expensive that resetting a manual trap, but the labour cost is ~25x cheaper. https://goodnature.co.nz https://goodnature.co.nz
  - Idontagree 8y ago
    Off topic, but you really think there arnt automatic turrets, seems very feasible today, especially in a situation like a sewer where you really dont have to worry about shooting the wrong (moving) thing.
    - adrianN 8y ago
      We had automatic turrets decades ago, so the "AI" part was just me trying to be funny.
pjc50 8y ago
Alberta have managed to keep rats at bay: http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/All/agdex3441 http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/All/agd...
- majos 8y ago
  For a government record of the development and implementation of government policy, that is a surprisingly fun read. It's hard to imagine a public education campaign like this working today: > Posters and brochures on rat control were widely distributed; displays were presented at local fairs, picnics and rodeos; and talks were presented to schools, 4-H clubs, agricultural societies, Chambers of Commerce and to just about anyone who would listen. ...let alone with this level of dedication from the educators: > At a series of meetings with members of Indigenous communities, an Alberta Agriculture staff member ate warfarin-treated rolled oats while discussing rat control and the physiological effects of warfarin. He was able to effectively demonstrate the relative safety of warfarin to concerned community members, and they were able to move forward together. It took about a decade for the program to work, but it did work: > The number of known rat infestations in the border area increased rapidly from one in 1950 to 573 in 1955, and the numbers varied between 394 and 637 during 1956 to 1959. After 1959, the numbers of infestations dropped dramatically (Figure 3 [showing # rat infestations in Alberta hovering between 0 and 4 since 2000]). Hence, almost 10 years passed before an accumulation of training, experience and public education brought the rat problem firmly in hand. And finally, rat control seems to be a point of genuine public pride. Something about regularly trumpeting government success in media is weird to me, but they seem to have earned it, and it's useful to keep people appreciative and aware. > The discovery of a rat in Edmonton or Calgary receives full media coverage. In addition, the success of the program is reported by provincial or national media three or four times a year, and this success serves as a reminder to the residents that rat control is still an important program in Alberta. Great link!
kamaal 8y ago
>>If not, can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without harming the entire ecosystem? Animals bunch around places where there is food. And the hard part is if you have food these animals generally multiply well enough to eat that food. In India its common to see street dogs, because food littering. Some times they take away the dogs, but they repopulate again in months/years. And in places where they don't litter you will see there are no dogs.
Tor3 8y ago
The way to get rid of rats is not poison, it's to remove their food sources. The only reason they live in the sewer system is that there's always something there for a rat to eat. The whole sewer system we use will have to be redesigned. Not impossible, but definitely not easy.
pc86 8y ago
Why do we need to remove them if they're not useful to humans? Ecologically I think it's hard to estimate the impact of removing an entire species from a given area.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Yes. When they are not native they can be very harmful - for example they badly damage bird life in New Zealand.
crispyambulance 8y ago
> can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without harming the entire ecosystem? Many cities, like Baltimore, have an entire department devoted to "rat eradication" (https://publicworks.baltimorecity.gov/Rat-Eradication https://publicworks.baltimorecity.gov/Rat-Eradication). Some have a "rat czar" "Eradication" is a bit of a misnomer because it is not possible to actually eliminate rats from a city. The goal is to keep them from getting out of control. However bad a rat problem is, it can get much worse if unchecked. These programs use a combination of public education, on-demand services (poison, burrow-treatments), and other interventions like city codes for proper garbage containers/handling etc.
- joecool1029 8y ago
  >"Eradication" is a bit of a misnomer because it is not possible to actually eliminate rats from a city. It’s been done before: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/rat-control-in-alberta https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/rat-contro...
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    And it’s not a long way off being tried in New Zealand, which has (distant) goals of being predator free. Presumably this excludes humans.
toast0 8y ago
Barcelona has very old sewers, which means there are many places for rats to gain entrance to the sewers, as well as places to live and hide. It's not a battle that's easily won. Modern sewer systems separate storm runoff from sanitary sewers, and try to keep the sanitary sewers sealed off from animals. It's hard to change the infrastructure under a bustling city though, so most major cities tend to have the sewers they were built with, or whatever was retrofitted when it became apparent that sewage in the streets was worse than the expense of building a sewer system. However, rats are clever and do occasionally find their way in and around modern sewers as well.

I lost count after 200,003 rats :) Do rats serve a useful (for us) purpose there? If not, can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without harming the entire ecosystem?

zimablue 8y ago

https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/13/8592817/rat-patrol-new-york-alberta-canada-south-georgia-eradication https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/13/8592817/rat-patrol-new-yo... The guys who do this professionally/successfully in a sparsely populated place with everyone helping and the advantage that rats can't survive outdoors don't think it's possible in cities. Big problems with poison: Rats are harder than you think to poison, they're both sceptical of new food and adapted to survive lots of poisons Evolution will work against you and select rats that don't eat or digest your new poison You will poison lots of things you don't intend to (wild animals, pets, humans). You can imagine an IOT solution in 50 years though (coordinating web of mechanical cats/ferrets with amazing smell/sight that just never stop hunting).

ddorian43 8y ago
Then you can change the target (Black Mirror: Metalhead)
- pc86 8y ago
  One of my favorite episodes, honestly.
  - ss2003 8y ago
    It was important, but ultimately so depressing that it turned me off to the series.
    - dajohnson89 8y ago
      I know the feeling. I remember countless instances where I wanted to watch a new episode, but couldn't muster the courage to do so.
arkitaip 8y ago
No way an army of robot cats and ferrets can be used for malicious purposes. No way...
adrianN 8y ago
AI gun turrets in the sewers.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Not quite there, but this thing is successful. It’s a self resetting trap, with its kill attracting more target species. Refilling if after ~25 kills is more expensive that resetting a manual trap, but the labour cost is ~25x cheaper. https://goodnature.co.nz https://goodnature.co.nz
- Idontagree 8y ago
  Off topic, but you really think there arnt automatic turrets, seems very feasible today, especially in a situation like a sewer where you really dont have to worry about shooting the wrong (moving) thing.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    We had automatic turrets decades ago, so the "AI" part was just me trying to be funny.

pjc50 8y ago

Alberta have managed to keep rats at bay: http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/All/agdex3441 http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/All/agd...

majos 8y ago
For a government record of the development and implementation of government policy, that is a surprisingly fun read. It's hard to imagine a public education campaign like this working today: > Posters and brochures on rat control were widely distributed; displays were presented at local fairs, picnics and rodeos; and talks were presented to schools, 4-H clubs, agricultural societies, Chambers of Commerce and to just about anyone who would listen. ...let alone with this level of dedication from the educators: > At a series of meetings with members of Indigenous communities, an Alberta Agriculture staff member ate warfarin-treated rolled oats while discussing rat control and the physiological effects of warfarin. He was able to effectively demonstrate the relative safety of warfarin to concerned community members, and they were able to move forward together. It took about a decade for the program to work, but it did work: > The number of known rat infestations in the border area increased rapidly from one in 1950 to 573 in 1955, and the numbers varied between 394 and 637 during 1956 to 1959. After 1959, the numbers of infestations dropped dramatically (Figure 3 [showing # rat infestations in Alberta hovering between 0 and 4 since 2000]). Hence, almost 10 years passed before an accumulation of training, experience and public education brought the rat problem firmly in hand. And finally, rat control seems to be a point of genuine public pride. Something about regularly trumpeting government success in media is weird to me, but they seem to have earned it, and it's useful to keep people appreciative and aware. > The discovery of a rat in Edmonton or Calgary receives full media coverage. In addition, the success of the program is reported by provincial or national media three or four times a year, and this success serves as a reminder to the residents that rat control is still an important program in Alberta. Great link!

kamaal 8y ago

>>If not, can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without harming the entire ecosystem? Animals bunch around places where there is food. And the hard part is if you have food these animals generally multiply well enough to eat that food. In India its common to see street dogs, because food littering. Some times they take away the dogs, but they repopulate again in months/years. And in places where they don't litter you will see there are no dogs.

Tor3 8y ago

The way to get rid of rats is not poison, it's to remove their food sources. The only reason they live in the sewer system is that there's always something there for a rat to eat. The whole sewer system we use will have to be redesigned. Not impossible, but definitely not easy.

pc86 8y ago

Why do we need to remove them if they're not useful to humans? Ecologically I think it's hard to estimate the impact of removing an entire species from a given area.

lostlogin 8y ago
Yes. When they are not native they can be very harmful - for example they badly damage bird life in New Zealand.

crispyambulance 8y ago

> can we release a rat specific poison or is that impossible without harming the entire ecosystem? Many cities, like Baltimore, have an entire department devoted to "rat eradication" (https://publicworks.baltimorecity.gov/Rat-Eradication https://publicworks.baltimorecity.gov/Rat-Eradication). Some have a "rat czar" "Eradication" is a bit of a misnomer because it is not possible to actually eliminate rats from a city. The goal is to keep them from getting out of control. However bad a rat problem is, it can get much worse if unchecked. These programs use a combination of public education, on-demand services (poison, burrow-treatments), and other interventions like city codes for proper garbage containers/handling etc.

joecool1029 8y ago
>"Eradication" is a bit of a misnomer because it is not possible to actually eliminate rats from a city. It’s been done before: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/rat-control-in-alberta https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/rat-contro...
- lostlogin 8y ago
  And it’s not a long way off being tried in New Zealand, which has (distant) goals of being predator free. Presumably this excludes humans.

toast0 8y ago

Barcelona has very old sewers, which means there are many places for rats to gain entrance to the sewers, as well as places to live and hide. It's not a battle that's easily won. Modern sewer systems separate storm runoff from sanitary sewers, and try to keep the sanitary sewers sealed off from animals. It's hard to change the infrastructure under a bustling city though, so most major cities tend to have the sewers they were built with, or whatever was retrofitted when it became apparent that sewage in the streets was worse than the expense of building a sewer system. However, rats are clever and do occasionally find their way in and around modern sewers as well.