8 ms·

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if yo

by titzer 8y ago

After 5 years there, my conclusion was that the Bay Area runs on human souls. It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry. Get out if you can.

EZ-E 8y ago
> It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry. I would get my soul sucked dry for a few years for 100k$+ a year - for few years
- carlmr 8y ago
  100k$ won't create much savings in the Bay Area. At least aim for 200k$ there if you want to sell your life for years.
  - madengr 8y ago
    So $200k is $20k for 10 years, which is well below the poverty line. If you sold your life for 4 years, that would only get you 40 years of poverty. Now if you can invest $180k/year, for a few years when young, you can retire early and rich. But it would take 20 years of growth.
  - nigifabio 8y ago
    100k in most of European big cities are not going to send you to pension at 40 either, 200k is the 6figures salary of the 90s
    - carlmr 8y ago
      True, in Europe high taxes take an additional toll, also the salary situation is so that it's basically impossible to get 200k in Europe if you're an employee.
- watwut 8y ago
  One thing to consider is that if you spend several years with zero friends, zero romance and doing only single thing, then it is hard to start socializing again (assuming work is work and not socializing moved to workplace). You forget what it is like, how to do it, how to choose people to be with. You wont know what to do with time.
  - a008t 8y ago
    At the same time, it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. It is easy to have zero friends, zero romance and zero meaningful hobbies under almost any circumstances for the kind of people that end up getting jobs in SV anyway.
    - watwut 8y ago
      The dichotomy here is not between dirt poor and apple CEO. Also, most young people who end up in SV are normally adjusted fully able to have friends and romance. They are also able to enjoy movies, read books, etc etc etc the same way as other people.
- jiveturkey 8y ago
  Where, in the entire US, does tech not pay $100k? startups pay more than that here. You don’t need to come to SV to make $100k. Any city will do.
  - RightMillennial 8y ago
    Are you talking entry, low, mid, or high level compensation? Anecdotally, in the Midwest entry level is well below $100k. If you want to make $100k here, you have to be at least mid level and be at a company that values developers. According to "Developer Salaries in 2018: Updating the Stack Overflow Salary Calculator" [1], the median pay is roughly 100k in the prominent Midwest cities. [1]: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-2018-updating-the-stack-overflow-salary-calculator/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-...
    - jiveturkey 8y ago
      Thanks for the link. I guess I overestimated starting salaries nationwide by quite a bit! But in my defense, I really meant total comp, not just salary. I know of 2 SF startups that pay $120k ish for entry level. At entry level, forget about equity, the amount you will get will be worthless. The base is your entire package. Google will give you a total comp (salary, bonus, RSU) of about $150-$160k for entry level. No senior+ person I know there is making less than $250k total comp. Google designs salaries very well to keep everyone in the same level centered at the same total comp. If you take a high salary, your raises and RSU refreshers will be less, regardless of your performance. Personally I think that's very unfair but hey I don't work at Google so who am I to say. I was making $125k base (maybe $150k total) as entry level at a mid-peninsula bigco back in 2000. I never dipped under $100k going to smallco and startups since then. As you can imagine, I make a fortune these days but I am very highly specialized. If indeed startups are paying less than $100k here, I can't imagine how they hire anyone, certainly not anyone good.
ryandrake 8y ago
I’ve been here only 8 years at this point but I find the Bay Area is what you make of it. If you want to work 12 hour days, go ahead and do that. If you want no friends or hobbies, that can be accommodated. If you want to spend $5k/mo in rent so you can live in the city, knock yourself out and do it, nobody is stopping you. But these are all optional, and avoidable.
jiveturkey 8y ago
not my experience. yup worked super hard but also partied pretty hard and made lots of lifelong friends. you do that when you have a shared experience. anyway just saying, i found my first five years to be collegial. i would never ever do it again but i look back with fondness. of course it only works if you are in an exciting startup or small company. i very very much doubt you are going to forge bonds if your first job is at FAANG and you did not attend shool here. i cannot believe new grads would come here for the FAANG experience. that does indeed seem awful to me.
- pm90 8y ago
  This comment kinda reveals just how little you know of how the rest of the country and the world looks at Silicon Valley. Google, MS etc. are seen as great jobs for many immigrants and (as I found in grad school in a rural area) small town kids. They compensate extremely well, which is enough of a carrot for many, many people, especially those from less economically privileged backgrounds.
rconti 8y ago
Protip: Don't do that. Don't work for a soul sucking company. Don't have a crappy boss. Don't refuse to have hobbies, don't refuse to have friends. Moved to the bay area 16 years ago. Love it. Can't imagine going back to the northwest. I've worked at a handful of tech companies and NEVER felt pressured to burn myself out. Life is what you make of it. That's not to say there aren't crappy employers out there, and it's not so crap on the plight of those who feel stuck. Those employer should be held to account, I don't want to blame the victim. But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else.
- titzer 8y ago
  > But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else. Everyone has different experiences, but this does not really jibe with the incentive structures of Tech companies. Heroic hackers with legendary exploits are not only lionized, but everyone is rewarded with "pay for performance" incentive structures, and of course, the elusive jackpot of startup glory. In my experience it's absolutely part of the culture in Silicon Valley that top hackers burn themselves out like this. Having a normal life seems to be counter to the prevailing mindset and the very real, very palpable monetary incentives.
pcwalton 8y ago
I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But it's not bad for everyone: I really enjoy it here and, honestly, my biggest fear is having to leave someday due to costs, because my quality of life is so high and because I have a lot of friends here.
trhway 8y ago
>if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, when i walk the dog past the cool&hip startups in the downtown Palo Alto, i always wonder what happened - nobody is working in the evening in these nicely appointed open floor offices designed to foster creativity, collaboration and communication. Those 10-12 hours a day seems to be a myth these days. >caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance the Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc. downtowns (and what i gather the Mission and other cool places in SF) are bustling in the evening with young techies socializing and romancing when they are supposed to be crushing their soul in a soul crushing startup. One more SV myth ...
megaman8 8y ago
You can avoid many of these places if you let the recruiters, HR and interviewers know that your looking for a place with good work life balance. It is hard to find good companies to work for in the bay area, but there are a few that exist. Make sure you read the glassdoor reviews: don't pay attention to the star rating (those are completely messed up), but the truth tends to come out in the writings, especially the longer reviews. Read those very carefully. If the place is toxic, it often comes out.

by titzer 8y ago

EZ-E 8y ago

> It might not be like the black lung, dirt-faced dangerous mines of old, but if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, are caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance, and your mind is hijacked to the point where you literally cannot think about anything else and relax, then your soul is being pretty much sucked dry. I would get my soul sucked dry for a few years for 100k$+ a year - for few years

carlmr 8y ago
100k$ won't create much savings in the Bay Area. At least aim for 200k$ there if you want to sell your life for years.
- madengr 8y ago
  So $200k is $20k for 10 years, which is well below the poverty line. If you sold your life for 4 years, that would only get you 40 years of poverty. Now if you can invest $180k/year, for a few years when young, you can retire early and rich. But it would take 20 years of growth.
- nigifabio 8y ago
  100k in most of European big cities are not going to send you to pension at 40 either, 200k is the 6figures salary of the 90s
  - carlmr 8y ago
    True, in Europe high taxes take an additional toll, also the salary situation is so that it's basically impossible to get 200k in Europe if you're an employee.
watwut 8y ago
One thing to consider is that if you spend several years with zero friends, zero romance and doing only single thing, then it is hard to start socializing again (assuming work is work and not socializing moved to workplace). You forget what it is like, how to do it, how to choose people to be with. You wont know what to do with time.
- a008t 8y ago
  At the same time, it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. It is easy to have zero friends, zero romance and zero meaningful hobbies under almost any circumstances for the kind of people that end up getting jobs in SV anyway.
  - watwut 8y ago
    The dichotomy here is not between dirt poor and apple CEO. Also, most young people who end up in SV are normally adjusted fully able to have friends and romance. They are also able to enjoy movies, read books, etc etc etc the same way as other people.
jiveturkey 8y ago
Where, in the entire US, does tech not pay $100k? startups pay more than that here. You don’t need to come to SV to make $100k. Any city will do.
- RightMillennial 8y ago
  Are you talking entry, low, mid, or high level compensation? Anecdotally, in the Midwest entry level is well below $100k. If you want to make $100k here, you have to be at least mid level and be at a company that values developers. According to "Developer Salaries in 2018: Updating the Stack Overflow Salary Calculator" [1], the median pay is roughly 100k in the prominent Midwest cities. [1]: https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-2018-updating-the-stack-overflow-salary-calculator/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-...
  - jiveturkey 8y ago
    Thanks for the link. I guess I overestimated starting salaries nationwide by quite a bit! But in my defense, I really meant total comp, not just salary. I know of 2 SF startups that pay $120k ish for entry level. At entry level, forget about equity, the amount you will get will be worthless. The base is your entire package. Google will give you a total comp (salary, bonus, RSU) of about $150-$160k for entry level. No senior+ person I know there is making less than $250k total comp. Google designs salaries very well to keep everyone in the same level centered at the same total comp. If you take a high salary, your raises and RSU refreshers will be less, regardless of your performance. Personally I think that's very unfair but hey I don't work at Google so who am I to say. I was making $125k base (maybe $150k total) as entry level at a mid-peninsula bigco back in 2000. I never dipped under $100k going to smallco and startups since then. As you can imagine, I make a fortune these days but I am very highly specialized. If indeed startups are paying less than $100k here, I can't imagine how they hire anyone, certainly not anyone good.

ryandrake 8y ago

I’ve been here only 8 years at this point but I find the Bay Area is what you make of it. If you want to work 12 hour days, go ahead and do that. If you want no friends or hobbies, that can be accommodated. If you want to spend $5k/mo in rent so you can live in the city, knock yourself out and do it, nobody is stopping you. But these are all optional, and avoidable.

jiveturkey 8y ago

not my experience. yup worked super hard but also partied pretty hard and made lots of lifelong friends. you do that when you have a shared experience. anyway just saying, i found my first five years to be collegial. i would never ever do it again but i look back with fondness. of course it only works if you are in an exciting startup or small company. i very very much doubt you are going to forge bonds if your first job is at FAANG and you did not attend shool here. i cannot believe new grads would come here for the FAANG experience. that does indeed seem awful to me.

pm90 8y ago
This comment kinda reveals just how little you know of how the rest of the country and the world looks at Silicon Valley. Google, MS etc. are seen as great jobs for many immigrants and (as I found in grad school in a rural area) small town kids. They compensate extremely well, which is enough of a carrot for many, many people, especially those from less economically privileged backgrounds.

rconti 8y ago

Protip: Don't do that. Don't work for a soul sucking company. Don't have a crappy boss. Don't refuse to have hobbies, don't refuse to have friends. Moved to the bay area 16 years ago. Love it. Can't imagine going back to the northwest. I've worked at a handful of tech companies and NEVER felt pressured to burn myself out. Life is what you make of it. That's not to say there aren't crappy employers out there, and it's not so crap on the plight of those who feel stuck. Those employer should be held to account, I don't want to blame the victim. But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else.

titzer 8y ago
> But I've seen nothing about this area that makes it more likely to happen here than anywhere else. Everyone has different experiences, but this does not really jibe with the incentive structures of Tech companies. Heroic hackers with legendary exploits are not only lionized, but everyone is rewarded with "pay for performance" incentive structures, and of course, the elusive jackpot of startup glory. In my experience it's absolutely part of the culture in Silicon Valley that top hackers burn themselves out like this. Having a normal life seems to be counter to the prevailing mindset and the very real, very palpable monetary incentives.

pcwalton 8y ago

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. But it's not bad for everyone: I really enjoy it here and, honestly, my biggest fear is having to leave someday due to costs, because my quality of life is so high and because I have a lot of friends here.

trhway 8y ago

>if you end up working 10 or 12 hours a day, when i walk the dog past the cool&hip startups in the downtown Palo Alto, i always wonder what happened - nobody is working in the evening in these nicely appointed open floor offices designed to foster creativity, collaboration and communication. Those 10-12 hours a day seems to be a myth these days. >caged, distracted, annoyed (but fed!) at work, go home to a meager existence, have zero friends, zero romance the Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc. downtowns (and what i gather the Mission and other cool places in SF) are bustling in the evening with young techies socializing and romancing when they are supposed to be crushing their soul in a soul crushing startup. One more SV myth ...

megaman8 8y ago

You can avoid many of these places if you let the recruiters, HR and interviewers know that your looking for a place with good work life balance. It is hard to find good companies to work for in the bay area, but there are a few that exist. Make sure you read the glassdoor reviews: don't pay attention to the star rating (those are completely messed up), but the truth tends to come out in the writings, especially the longer reviews. Read those very carefully. If the place is toxic, it often comes out.