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>...people externally often think Google is on some evil plan... The real bad guys don't ever think they are evil. (consider Al Capone, hero of the people)

pvorb 8y ago
Yes. Acting evil is what makes you evil.
- kbenson 8y ago
  Then again, maybe we shouldn't be throwing around words like "evil", which we all know is hyperbole (even if invited hyperbole because of Google's own prior statements). Someone talks about Google being evil, and then other people push back because it's not really "evil", and they are both right, so neither ever gives an inch. Sure, there's less impact when statements are less hyperbolic, but there's also less bikeshedding about the problem, so maybe something actually happens in the end.
  - eksemplar 8y ago
    Evil sort of loses it’s meaning when it’s thrown a google in a world where Pennsylvania just banned books that aren’t sold through their systems from prisons, where ICE kills children in concentration camps, and that’s talking domestic issues only. I mean, if google is evil then what do you call North Korea? Super duper evil?
    - pvorb 8y ago
      I was just referring to Google's own phrase: "Don't be evil." Google is evil in the same way now, that Microsoft was back in the day.
      - hulahoof 8y ago
        Tellingly, it was changed to "Do the right thing." after the alphabet split.
  - toxik 8y ago
    You said it yourself, Google’s raison d’etre in some ways into these markets was that they were not evil anticompetetive Microsoft. Today, they very much are. Arguably they were always this way, but dark patterns like this is a new low. And no you don’t need to be North Korea to be evil. That is a meaningless comparison. Coincidentally Google has started working with regimes similar to NK; The PRC. Is that not evil?
    - kbenson 8y ago
      > Coincidentally Google has started working with regimes similar to NK; The PRC. Is that not evil? No, it's not, because evil is a negative ideal, but I don't think it actually exists in reality. Even Hitler wasn't evil, he was insane, and the whole situation is a case study of what happens when people, regular people, are given an easy explanation for all their problems. Placing something in the category of "evil" is placing it apart from behavior that you expect normal people to be capable of, since I think most people thing the majority aren't evil. All that does is help us feel better at the expense of helping us be better. Evil is for fairy tales, where things are black and white. Normal people rightly get defensive when called such, because the road to hell actually is paved with good intentions. Hyperbole isn't a useful way to communicate. Sorry to go full Godwins on this, but if you can't pull out Hitler and Nazi's when talking about evil (even to counter the point), then when can you...
      - Twisell 8y ago
        You just implied that Hitler was insane, a slang and disrespectful word for mentally ill people. I can’t even start to consider that it’s an appropriate analogy so Godwin point is dully granted. PS: If it please your mind regexp replace "evil" by "ill intentioned" in Google related threads. But don’t forget that it’s Google that originated this terminology in the first place with their moto "Don’t be evil"...
Nitramp 8y ago
> >...people externally often think Google is on some evil plan... > The real bad guys don't ever think they are evil. At least seen from the inside, it's often funny (and sad) to see all kinds of crazy speculation about the greater evil goal of nefarious decisions made, all the while whatever is happening is usually a mixture of software bugs and incompetence on our side. It's like a clown show, where the evil mastermind turns out to just be me incorrectly checking for a null value in some if condition, or my PM having no idea how to rationalize two features together. I guess that comes with large corporation status, and a certain failure to communicate. Not sure if it's avoidable at all. It does teach you something about perception vs intent, I guess.

pvorb 8y ago

Yes. Acting evil is what makes you evil.

kbenson 8y ago
Then again, maybe we shouldn't be throwing around words like "evil", which we all know is hyperbole (even if invited hyperbole because of Google's own prior statements). Someone talks about Google being evil, and then other people push back because it's not really "evil", and they are both right, so neither ever gives an inch. Sure, there's less impact when statements are less hyperbolic, but there's also less bikeshedding about the problem, so maybe something actually happens in the end.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  Evil sort of loses it’s meaning when it’s thrown a google in a world where Pennsylvania just banned books that aren’t sold through their systems from prisons, where ICE kills children in concentration camps, and that’s talking domestic issues only. I mean, if google is evil then what do you call North Korea? Super duper evil?
  - pvorb 8y ago
    I was just referring to Google's own phrase: "Don't be evil." Google is evil in the same way now, that Microsoft was back in the day.
    - hulahoof 8y ago
      Tellingly, it was changed to "Do the right thing." after the alphabet split.
- toxik 8y ago
  You said it yourself, Google’s raison d’etre in some ways into these markets was that they were not evil anticompetetive Microsoft. Today, they very much are. Arguably they were always this way, but dark patterns like this is a new low. And no you don’t need to be North Korea to be evil. That is a meaningless comparison. Coincidentally Google has started working with regimes similar to NK; The PRC. Is that not evil?
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > Coincidentally Google has started working with regimes similar to NK; The PRC. Is that not evil? No, it's not, because evil is a negative ideal, but I don't think it actually exists in reality. Even Hitler wasn't evil, he was insane, and the whole situation is a case study of what happens when people, regular people, are given an easy explanation for all their problems. Placing something in the category of "evil" is placing it apart from behavior that you expect normal people to be capable of, since I think most people thing the majority aren't evil. All that does is help us feel better at the expense of helping us be better. Evil is for fairy tales, where things are black and white. Normal people rightly get defensive when called such, because the road to hell actually is paved with good intentions. Hyperbole isn't a useful way to communicate. Sorry to go full Godwins on this, but if you can't pull out Hitler and Nazi's when talking about evil (even to counter the point), then when can you...
    - Twisell 8y ago
      You just implied that Hitler was insane, a slang and disrespectful word for mentally ill people. I can’t even start to consider that it’s an appropriate analogy so Godwin point is dully granted. PS: If it please your mind regexp replace "evil" by "ill intentioned" in Google related threads. But don’t forget that it’s Google that originated this terminology in the first place with their moto "Don’t be evil"...

Nitramp 8y ago

> >...people externally often think Google is on some evil plan... > The real bad guys don't ever think they are evil. At least seen from the inside, it's often funny (and sad) to see all kinds of crazy speculation about the greater evil goal of nefarious decisions made, all the while whatever is happening is usually a mixture of software bugs and incompetence on our side. It's like a clown show, where the evil mastermind turns out to just be me incorrectly checking for a null value in some if condition, or my PM having no idea how to rationalize two features together. I guess that comes with large corporation status, and a certain failure to communicate. Not sure if it's avoidable at all. It does teach you something about perception vs intent, I guess.