7 ms·

This is the problem with non-technical lawyers making technical laws. It's like when the Attorney General was pushing for metadata retention but couldn't even e

This is the problem with non-technical lawyers making technical laws. It's like when the Attorney General was pushing for metadata retention but couldn't even explain what metadata was.

BigJono 8y ago
The laws of mathematics don't apply in Australia.
- andrewflnr 8y ago
  Australia needs a referendum to repeal the laws of gravity.
  - ggm 8y ago
    We will decide which laws of physics come to Australia and on what terms.
rbg246 8y ago
I have a feeling it was not explained deliberately so that the general public wouldn't know what it was and that what the legal definition of what meta data was could be expanded when required.
- lugg 8y ago
  The point still stands.
  - rbg246 8y ago
    Agreed
ezoe 8y ago
It doesn't require rocket science to understand how bad this is. It's like permission to arrest and jail anyone for no reason BECAUSE he may commit crime in the future.
- brian-armstrong 8y ago
  Australia's inhabitants were sent there in punishment for crimes, so in fact everyone there is a criminal already (or descends from a crimefamily)
  - threeseed 8y ago
    About 1/3 of Australia are immigrants. So no. Most of us aren't criminals or descended from criminals.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    Honestly, that joke's getting a bit old now. Most Australians are recent immigrants, only 20% of Australians are descended from a convict.
    - lozaning 8y ago
      Any truth to what I've been told that it's a point of pride for those who can trace their family lines back to those that were criminals? I've heard it's kinda similar to the The Daughters of the American Revolution in the US.
      - fineline 8y ago
        Apparently it used to be considered something you would try and hide, back in the days of the cultural cringe[0], whereas now it can be seen as a bit of a badge of honour. My wife's family descends from a convict bloke whose free wife came out too and got her husband assigned to her. Convicts were assigned as essentially unpaid labour (other than food and a rough bed) to land owners at the time. Given that many were very petty criminals back in Britain (e.g. stealing a loaf of bread) some interpret the arrangement as not much better than slavery, as a means to provide free labour to grow the fledgling colony. Some of the tales of the worst penal institutions (think Tasmania) are truly horrifying. But many convict labourers were granted their freedom over time too. It also had an interesting effect on the labour market, with free settlers finding it hard to get decent pay as farm labour etc. One of the great statesmen, Henry Parkes, was in exactly that position when he first arrived in Aus as a poor settler, and got involved in the protest which eventually turned back the last convict ship ever to anchor in Sydney Harbour. He went on to be elected multiple times as premier of NSW, achieving lots of progress in the state (trained nursing, universal education etc.) before getting the heads of all the colonial states around the table to drive the process of joining to become the nation of Australia. If only we had statesmen / women of that calibre today ... but sadly not. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe
iliketosleep 8y ago
The Attorney General may not understand it well, but the people advising him may. The metadata collection is an "always on" type of surveillance, and under such conditions all it takes is one slip up in OPSEC to be caught out. Some of these politicians may look like clowns at times, but don't underestimate the level of intelligence (and agendas) of those working for them behind the scenes.
threeseed 8y ago
This isn't how it works at all. Technical laws are advised by people from technical backgrounds. And in the case of laws like this it is coming directly from technical experts at ASIO/ASIS. Likewise it is irrelevant whether the Attorney General knows the technical definition of metadata since he isn't personally writing the law.
- cyberferret 8y ago
  No, I would counter argue that those in charge of bringing in laws should at least understand the basic principles of what those laws contain. Much as they shouldn't ban a chemical additive to our foods without first understanding the nature and effects of that chemical (based on scientific research and evidence), then they shouldn't enact laws around privacy and data without understanding what that data itself contains. (He doesn't have to make the chemicals in a lab, he just needs to understand what it is/does). The fact that the AG has no clear definition of what 'meta data' is, or cannot explain that to a reporter or the public really shakes my confidence that his limited understanding of 'meta data' includes elements that can personally identify someone (e.g. Does he think a phone number is 'meta data' or straight up 'personal data'? Because a phone number can be owned by more than one person, or is transferrable, does he think that is 'meta'?). The AG should at least be able to give a broad definition of the scope of the laws that he is going to be responsible for upholding.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    What are you proposing is unworkable. AG and Ministers set the strategic direction for the public sector. They operate at a sufficiently high level such that they will never be the experts and will never be across the subtleties of the policies. That's the job of the public servants. Also the distinction between data and metadata is quite subtle and as someone who deals with this daily I make mistakes with it. So I don't expert the AG or really anyone to have the right answer every time.
    - cam_l 8y ago
      I broadly agree with you in principle, but in this specific case i think the issue of the law is the subtlety of the definition. The thing that the AG was studiously avoiding to answer was that both he and the people that drafted the law understood that metadata is data. He was trying to obfuscate the fact that the government was massively shifting the imaginary line between them.
walrus01 8y ago
As a network engineer for several medium sized ASes, I have a real problem with political jackasses who've never typed "enable" on a router one day in their life making regulations about the Internet.

This is the problem with non-technical lawyers making technical laws. It's like when the Attorney General was pushing for metadata retention but couldn't even explain what metadata was.

BigJono 8y ago

The laws of mathematics don't apply in Australia.

andrewflnr 8y ago
Australia needs a referendum to repeal the laws of gravity.
- ggm 8y ago
  We will decide which laws of physics come to Australia and on what terms.

rbg246 8y ago

I have a feeling it was not explained deliberately so that the general public wouldn't know what it was and that what the legal definition of what meta data was could be expanded when required.

lugg 8y ago
The point still stands.
- rbg246 8y ago
  Agreed

ezoe 8y ago

It doesn't require rocket science to understand how bad this is. It's like permission to arrest and jail anyone for no reason BECAUSE he may commit crime in the future.

brian-armstrong 8y ago
Australia's inhabitants were sent there in punishment for crimes, so in fact everyone there is a criminal already (or descends from a crimefamily)
- threeseed 8y ago
  About 1/3 of Australia are immigrants. So no. Most of us aren't criminals or descended from criminals.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Honestly, that joke's getting a bit old now. Most Australians are recent immigrants, only 20% of Australians are descended from a convict.
  - lozaning 8y ago
    Any truth to what I've been told that it's a point of pride for those who can trace their family lines back to those that were criminals? I've heard it's kinda similar to the The Daughters of the American Revolution in the US.
    - fineline 8y ago
      Apparently it used to be considered something you would try and hide, back in the days of the cultural cringe[0], whereas now it can be seen as a bit of a badge of honour. My wife's family descends from a convict bloke whose free wife came out too and got her husband assigned to her. Convicts were assigned as essentially unpaid labour (other than food and a rough bed) to land owners at the time. Given that many were very petty criminals back in Britain (e.g. stealing a loaf of bread) some interpret the arrangement as not much better than slavery, as a means to provide free labour to grow the fledgling colony. Some of the tales of the worst penal institutions (think Tasmania) are truly horrifying. But many convict labourers were granted their freedom over time too. It also had an interesting effect on the labour market, with free settlers finding it hard to get decent pay as farm labour etc. One of the great statesmen, Henry Parkes, was in exactly that position when he first arrived in Aus as a poor settler, and got involved in the protest which eventually turned back the last convict ship ever to anchor in Sydney Harbour. He went on to be elected multiple times as premier of NSW, achieving lots of progress in the state (trained nursing, universal education etc.) before getting the heads of all the colonial states around the table to drive the process of joining to become the nation of Australia. If only we had statesmen / women of that calibre today ... but sadly not. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cringe

iliketosleep 8y ago

The Attorney General may not understand it well, but the people advising him may. The metadata collection is an "always on" type of surveillance, and under such conditions all it takes is one slip up in OPSEC to be caught out. Some of these politicians may look like clowns at times, but don't underestimate the level of intelligence (and agendas) of those working for them behind the scenes.

threeseed 8y ago

This isn't how it works at all. Technical laws are advised by people from technical backgrounds. And in the case of laws like this it is coming directly from technical experts at ASIO/ASIS. Likewise it is irrelevant whether the Attorney General knows the technical definition of metadata since he isn't personally writing the law.

cyberferret 8y ago
No, I would counter argue that those in charge of bringing in laws should at least understand the basic principles of what those laws contain. Much as they shouldn't ban a chemical additive to our foods without first understanding the nature and effects of that chemical (based on scientific research and evidence), then they shouldn't enact laws around privacy and data without understanding what that data itself contains. (He doesn't have to make the chemicals in a lab, he just needs to understand what it is/does). The fact that the AG has no clear definition of what 'meta data' is, or cannot explain that to a reporter or the public really shakes my confidence that his limited understanding of 'meta data' includes elements that can personally identify someone (e.g. Does he think a phone number is 'meta data' or straight up 'personal data'? Because a phone number can be owned by more than one person, or is transferrable, does he think that is 'meta'?). The AG should at least be able to give a broad definition of the scope of the laws that he is going to be responsible for upholding.
- threeseed 8y ago
  What are you proposing is unworkable. AG and Ministers set the strategic direction for the public sector. They operate at a sufficiently high level such that they will never be the experts and will never be across the subtleties of the policies. That's the job of the public servants. Also the distinction between data and metadata is quite subtle and as someone who deals with this daily I make mistakes with it. So I don't expert the AG or really anyone to have the right answer every time.
  - cam_l 8y ago
    I broadly agree with you in principle, but in this specific case i think the issue of the law is the subtlety of the definition. The thing that the AG was studiously avoiding to answer was that both he and the people that drafted the law understood that metadata is data. He was trying to obfuscate the fact that the government was massively shifting the imaginary line between them.

walrus01 8y ago

As a network engineer for several medium sized ASes, I have a real problem with political jackasses who've never typed "enable" on a router one day in their life making regulations about the Internet.