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Yes, yes. Since you are so experienced, and everyone else is "low status," riddle me this: If C++ is so great, why does every joint turning out even halfway d

Yes, yes. Since you are so experienced, and everyone else is "low status," riddle me this: If C++ is so great, why does every joint turning out even halfway decent C++ have to subset the bejesus out of it? Even in game dev, where resources are plenty, they still subset it. Could it be that maybe, maybe, someone discovered that even competent devs do better work when a few pieces of duct tape are stuck over the sharper, rustier edges of C++. On low RAM devices, I'd subset it all the way down to plain C. Fellow low status developer Linus Torvalds would do that at the outset for any device.

pjmlp 8y ago
Because many embedded developers are religiously against anything that isn't Assembly or a C89 dialect that only works in a specific CPU range, C99 and C11 are foreign words. Language subsets is not unique to C++.
- jstewartmobile 8y ago
  I would like a passport to that country with its strange and beautiful religion. Where I'm at, C++ is the sugar sex magic that rights all wrongs and triumphs over evil. edit: P.S., if I have a whole megabyte like Bjarne did in his AT&T days, I like C++ just fine.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    You can ask Dan Saks about it. CppCon 2016: Dan Saks “extern c: Talking to C Programmers about C++” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Sd8A6_fYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Sd8A6_fYU Embedded Development with Dan Saks https://cppcon.org/leveraging-modern-cpp-for-embedded-systems/ https://cppcon.org/leveraging-modern-cpp-for-embedded-system... When I started coding in C++ (Turbo C++), 640 KB were just fine, I could even make use of a full TUI framework (Turbo Vision). Hence my point of view about PIC class processors with single digit KB, being eventually the only target not possible to use with C++, unless one wants to suffer a bit with linker scripts.
gumby 8y ago
> If C++ is so great, why does every joint turning out even halfway decent C++ have to subset the bejesus out of it? Even in game dev, where resources are plenty, they still subset it. I'm not sure what your point is. C++ is explicitly a multi-paradigm systems-programming language and any code base that used every feature would be unreadable. The current project I am working on uses very few classes (where it does is mainly to drive computation into compile time rather than run time) and instead uses generic functions. I have seen other C++ code that uses classes and methods for basically everything -- I assume that house style works for them. > Yes, yes. Since you are so experienced, and everyone else is "low status," riddle me this: Have you ever worked in Japan, which is the case I explicitly called out? In most cases programming is what would be called in the US a "blue collar job". But even in the US, my experience as an embedded developer convinces me that embedded developers are typically not valued anywhere near as much as they deserve.
- jstewartmobile 8y ago
  > I'm not sure what your point is. In a scenario where templates, exceptions, and virtual functions are trouble waiting to happen, why even leave those temptations on the table? > Have you ever worked in Japan, which is the case I explicitly called out? Not asian--just think pulling the status and competence of foreign developers is kind of snobby and beside the point. I like most of your comments, so trying not to be a dick about it. Last comment just rubbed me the wrong way is all.
  - captain_perl 8y ago
    I understand you're trying to be PC and all, but for the benefit of other readers, the grandparent poster was referring to the fact that lots of embedded development is done in Japan, but the software programmers are paid and respected less than "real engineers." That's just the well-documented culture there.

pjmlp 8y ago

Because many embedded developers are religiously against anything that isn't Assembly or a C89 dialect that only works in a specific CPU range, C99 and C11 are foreign words. Language subsets is not unique to C++.

jstewartmobile 8y ago
I would like a passport to that country with its strange and beautiful religion. Where I'm at, C++ is the sugar sex magic that rights all wrongs and triumphs over evil. edit: P.S., if I have a whole megabyte like Bjarne did in his AT&T days, I like C++ just fine.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  You can ask Dan Saks about it. CppCon 2016: Dan Saks “extern c: Talking to C Programmers about C++” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Sd8A6_fYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Sd8A6_fYU Embedded Development with Dan Saks https://cppcon.org/leveraging-modern-cpp-for-embedded-systems/ https://cppcon.org/leveraging-modern-cpp-for-embedded-system... When I started coding in C++ (Turbo C++), 640 KB were just fine, I could even make use of a full TUI framework (Turbo Vision). Hence my point of view about PIC class processors with single digit KB, being eventually the only target not possible to use with C++, unless one wants to suffer a bit with linker scripts.

gumby 8y ago

> If C++ is so great, why does every joint turning out even halfway decent C++ have to subset the bejesus out of it? Even in game dev, where resources are plenty, they still subset it. I'm not sure what your point is. C++ is explicitly a multi-paradigm systems-programming language and any code base that used every feature would be unreadable. The current project I am working on uses very few classes (where it does is mainly to drive computation into compile time rather than run time) and instead uses generic functions. I have seen other C++ code that uses classes and methods for basically everything -- I assume that house style works for them. > Yes, yes. Since you are so experienced, and everyone else is "low status," riddle me this: Have you ever worked in Japan, which is the case I explicitly called out? In most cases programming is what would be called in the US a "blue collar job". But even in the US, my experience as an embedded developer convinces me that embedded developers are typically not valued anywhere near as much as they deserve.

jstewartmobile 8y ago
> I'm not sure what your point is. In a scenario where templates, exceptions, and virtual functions are trouble waiting to happen, why even leave those temptations on the table? > Have you ever worked in Japan, which is the case I explicitly called out? Not asian--just think pulling the status and competence of foreign developers is kind of snobby and beside the point. I like most of your comments, so trying not to be a dick about it. Last comment just rubbed me the wrong way is all.
- captain_perl 8y ago
  I understand you're trying to be PC and all, but for the benefit of other readers, the grandparent poster was referring to the fact that lots of embedded development is done in Japan, but the software programmers are paid and respected less than "real engineers." That's just the well-documented culture there.