6 ms·

> Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, This argument is symmetrical. I get pushback for not being

> Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, This argument is symmetrical. I get pushback for not being cis straight every day. For not shutting up and pretending. Every day. And your "non-conformist" views are in alignment with that pushback, no matter what methodology you want. Every moment you believe you have the right to dictate to someone how to live, who to love, or what to do with those feelings you give cover to the violence perpetrated in the name of those ideals. Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. > I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. I actually did that once. Even faster than I kicked off the person who had some racist views. At least most racists come by their views honestly in a society that has taught it to them at a fundamental level. Anti-vaxxers have far less excuse. > code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I don't think I've ever met a developer so valuable that I can ignore the externalities surrounding them. I accept one might exist, but if they don't convince me of this fact they've failed the test by definition. I can write the code, or get someone else to write it. There's no shortage of such opportunity in 2018. > I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions. So do I. Neither of us gets what we want, now do we? But keep in mind, the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying here because a project is changing its code of conduct specifically for in-band communication. So forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.

chris_mc 8y ago
It really pisses me off that you are down-voted for this as it's all extremely valid reasoning that makes sense. You get shit on because of who you are at your core every day you walk this Earth, and with this code of conduct they are only expected not to shit on you with a minimal level of respect, but that seems too far a bridge for these assholes.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I didn't do this because I am upvoted or appeciated. I contribute on HN almost exclusively so I have the karma to burn in situations like this. I consider threads and stories like this as one of my most important contributions to this website. 𐑚𐑰𐑦𐑙 𐑝𐑦𐑟𐑦𐑚𐑳𐑤 𐑦𐑯 𐑞𐑺 𐑲-𐑤𐑲𐑯, 𐑩𐑟 𐑕𐑳𐑥𐑢𐑳𐑯 𐑢𐑦𐑔 𐑒𐑮𐑧𐑛𐑦𐑚𐑦𐑤𐑦𐑑𐑰 𐑯 𐑝𐑷𐑤𐑘𐑵𐑥, 𐑦𐑟 𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤 𐑑 𐑒𐑰𐑐𐑦𐑙 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑐𐑰𐑐𐑳𐑤 𐑷𐑓-𐑚𐑨𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑕. ;)
smsm42 8y ago
> I get pushback for not being cis straight every day What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? > Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. I believe you. But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. > I actually did that once. You should not be proud about it. > the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying Nobody actually adopted this strategy yet, but even if anybody did, they are talking about CoC in their project, dealing with the code they personally implemented, not throwing people out for off-project disagreement.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? People call my workplace asking if they're aware they have a "pervert", "unregistered sex offender", "deranged faggot" and others. They've contacted senior management at various employers. They've registered spurious conduct complaints against me. When I owned a company, I narrowly avoided several disasters I don't even want to talk about involving physical security. I've been doxxed, threatened, and had threatening physical mail left in my mailbox. In this very HN page people have told me I'm mentally ill and therefore okay to disregard as a human. I'm genderfluid, but spend most of my experience feeling asexual. No one has ever seen me present as female in public. I can only imagine how much more insane it is for folks actually presenting across their assigned gender line. And I live in San Francisco. So you sit here and write to me about how sad you are that you might need to behave yourself in the context of a software project. I hear you. It sounds rough, and I wish you luck. But I've been driven to the brink of suicide by harassers, my partner has only fared a bit better. I'm offering to switch positions if you'd like. Or maybe you could police your communities the way I'm obligated to police mine. > But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. I think transparency and equal exposure IS a form of justice. I'd love to live my life in public without fear. It's all these folks asymmetrically leveraging my exposure and their anonymity. So I'm afraid your complaint has fallen on ideologically deaf ears, you think something is axiomatically bad and I think it's axiomatically good. If they don't want the judgement of their peers, then they shouldn't live that life. Just like folks tell me. It's surely a choice to act that way. > You should not be proud about it. You should not be proud of defending reprehensible and dehumanizing opinions simply on the pretense of economically valuable contributions, which is the fundamental thesis of nearly everyone's complaint in open source conduct standards these days. > , they are talking about CoC in their project But this is a lie right here, isn't it? It isn't "their" project. It's community owned and they could fork it, couldn't they? This would not even be possible if it were not accepted by the majority and the leadership. Let's not pretend that this is some minority forcing its will on the majority. Quite the contrary, the proposal of a "kill switch" is exactly the tactic adopted by a minority hoping to hold what they see as a point of leverage. They simply wouldn't need this tactic if their opinion was a majority.

chris_mc 8y ago

It really pisses me off that you are down-voted for this as it's all extremely valid reasoning that makes sense. You get shit on because of who you are at your core every day you walk this Earth, and with this code of conduct they are only expected not to shit on you with a minimal level of respect, but that seems too far a bridge for these assholes.

KirinDave 8y ago
I didn't do this because I am upvoted or appeciated. I contribute on HN almost exclusively so I have the karma to burn in situations like this. I consider threads and stories like this as one of my most important contributions to this website. 𐑚𐑰𐑦𐑙 𐑝𐑦𐑟𐑦𐑚𐑳𐑤 𐑦𐑯 𐑞𐑺 𐑲-𐑤𐑲𐑯, 𐑩𐑟 𐑕𐑳𐑥𐑢𐑳𐑯 𐑢𐑦𐑔 𐑒𐑮𐑧𐑛𐑦𐑚𐑦𐑤𐑦𐑑𐑰 𐑯 𐑝𐑷𐑤𐑘𐑵𐑥, 𐑦𐑟 𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤 𐑑 𐑒𐑰𐑐𐑦𐑙 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑐𐑰𐑐𐑳𐑤 𐑷𐑓-𐑚𐑨𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑕. ;)

smsm42 8y ago

> I get pushback for not being cis straight every day What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? > Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. I believe you. But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. > I actually did that once. You should not be proud about it. > the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying Nobody actually adopted this strategy yet, but even if anybody did, they are talking about CoC in their project, dealing with the code they personally implemented, not throwing people out for off-project disagreement.

KirinDave 8y ago
> What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? People call my workplace asking if they're aware they have a "pervert", "unregistered sex offender", "deranged faggot" and others. They've contacted senior management at various employers. They've registered spurious conduct complaints against me. When I owned a company, I narrowly avoided several disasters I don't even want to talk about involving physical security. I've been doxxed, threatened, and had threatening physical mail left in my mailbox. In this very HN page people have told me I'm mentally ill and therefore okay to disregard as a human. I'm genderfluid, but spend most of my experience feeling asexual. No one has ever seen me present as female in public. I can only imagine how much more insane it is for folks actually presenting across their assigned gender line. And I live in San Francisco. So you sit here and write to me about how sad you are that you might need to behave yourself in the context of a software project. I hear you. It sounds rough, and I wish you luck. But I've been driven to the brink of suicide by harassers, my partner has only fared a bit better. I'm offering to switch positions if you'd like. Or maybe you could police your communities the way I'm obligated to police mine. > But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. I think transparency and equal exposure IS a form of justice. I'd love to live my life in public without fear. It's all these folks asymmetrically leveraging my exposure and their anonymity. So I'm afraid your complaint has fallen on ideologically deaf ears, you think something is axiomatically bad and I think it's axiomatically good. If they don't want the judgement of their peers, then they shouldn't live that life. Just like folks tell me. It's surely a choice to act that way. > You should not be proud about it. You should not be proud of defending reprehensible and dehumanizing opinions simply on the pretense of economically valuable contributions, which is the fundamental thesis of nearly everyone's complaint in open source conduct standards these days. > , they are talking about CoC in their project But this is a lie right here, isn't it? It isn't "their" project. It's community owned and they could fork it, couldn't they? This would not even be possible if it were not accepted by the majority and the leadership. Let's not pretend that this is some minority forcing its will on the majority. Quite the contrary, the proposal of a "kill switch" is exactly the tactic adopted by a minority hoping to hold what they see as a point of leverage. They simply wouldn't need this tactic if their opinion was a majority.