5 ms·

I try Android Studio for a bit every now and then. I have to say it's such a giant bloated thing that it really does not make me want to write native code. Fo

by TekMol 8y ago

I try Android Studio for a bit every now and then. I have to say it's such a giant bloated thing that it really does not make me want to write native code. Fortunately, there is a lot of great stuff going on with Progressive Web Apps now. I hope that they will be the future. Developing for the browser is so much leaner.

watty 8y ago
Developing for the browser is leaner but it's the opposite for end-users. I hope PWAs are the future as well but native is still king for the time being.
- TekMol 8y ago
  As a user, I totally prefer a web app over a native app. Man .. don't even get me started .. ok, here we go: I can use it instantly. I can remove it instantly. The sandboxing is much better. The privacy is much better. I can link to it from wherever I like. I can use it on all my devices. I can copy text and images. I can change the style (I often enlarge the font for example). It can not use my battery / camera / phone when it's closed. ... I feel like I can go on forever.
  - kuschku 8y ago
    I open 2 web apps at the same time, and the phone crashes (all RAM exhausted). I open a web app, and it lags horribly for minutes before becoming even semi-usable. This is on a Nexus 5X, using stock Android. Web apps are a complete joke right now. Entirely useless. I always install native apps, if available — even if I know I’ll uninstall it 5 minutes later — because the alternative is entirely unusable on my device.
    - TekMol 8y ago
      That does not make sense. Web apps do not consume more resources then websites. And usually less then native apps. I never had them crash any phone.
      - eropple 8y ago
        A web application burning through a ton of JavaScript and a very complex DOM can very easily start demanding a lot of CPU and RAM. I've never had a browser crash a phone, but having the phone start to immediately feel sluggish after opening something like a moderately sized GitHub pull request--that's certainly a thing.
      - jrs95 8y ago
        Perhaps android apps are relatively resource intensive or inefficient, but in terms of "web apps" like SPAs vs server rendered websites, web apps are doing more on the client. They inherently use more resources. Electron apps don't tend to have awful performance characteristics on the desktop just because they can't share the underlying Chrome instance, opening the same apps (like Slack) in the browser is only marginally better. And if native resource consumption on Android is really that bad, that would be pretty unique for that platform. iOS and desktop platforms definitely have much more efficient native apps than web apps. However making it more difficult to crash the device is a definite advantage, you're right about that. Although I very rarely have native apps crash my devices anyways. I can't remember a time it's happened on my phone, and on my desktop it's usually a device driver issue combined with a game that causes an issue. Definitely an edge case and not something I encounter with native applications in general.
      - kuschku 8y ago
        Too many websites at the same time cause the same issue. If I open a site like cnn.com without an adblocker, all apps running in background (even e.g. spotify if I'm listening to music) are force closed because the phone runs low on RAM. Every website or web app I've used so far has used > 100-200M RAM, while a well developed Android app stays below 20-50M. My phone has 2GB RAM, 1GB is used by the OS, 500-800M are used by Google Play Services, and a web browser with 1-2 tabs takes another 200M of RAM. As soon as I open a website any more complex than HN, everything feels sluggish.
        eropple 8y ago
        Agreed. The DOM and JavaScript, as used by many heavy websites and web apps, are heavy. On the other hand, JavaScript in a more constrained environment--React Native, for example--is a lot more reasonable. Still heavier than an Android app, but not so heavy that it kills processes except on very downmarket phones.
  - waivek 8y ago
    Do you use a web app or a native app for YouTube?
    - speeq 8y ago
      I've started using the YouTube website on iOS because it uses the native video player and is ad-free then (some people put an ad-break every few minutes on documentaries for example which is super annoying)
    - taeric 8y ago
      I switched to firefox on my android for both Facebook and Twitter. So far, I've had very little downside to this.
      - cobookman 8y ago
        +1 dropped facebook native app for their web version. Never looked back. I think the answer is some apps are better on web, others on native. Videos / Music / Games / Email / Messaging are better native. For actual reading of content (HN / Reddit / Twitter / Facebook ...etc) I find better on the web.
    - Yetanfou 8y ago
      Why, good you asked: a native app called NewPipe [1] which eats Youtube URL's and plays videos (and allows the download of such), no more - and that includes no ads - and no less. It only sends such data as needed to get the video. Lately it has started to support Soundcloud as well, I have not tried this yet. [1] https://newpipe.schabi.org/ https://newpipe.schabi.org/
  - gascan 8y ago
    Do they work offline?
    - tazard 8y ago
      They can, yes. Some native apps don't work offline too.
      - diegoperini 8y ago
        It's actually harder to make a native app offline readable if it's entity relationship is complex.
  - jzoch 8y ago
    > The privacy is much better. Is it? I strongly challenge that at least in the iOS ecosystem. Sandboxing and privacy on the web is not as strong in many cases as iOS.
- specializeded 8y ago
  As a hypothetical user who doesn’t post on niche tech forums, I totally prefer a native app over a web app It’s pretty It’s fast It’s not stuttery-stoppy I can swipe back and forth between pages without waiting 4 seconds for everything to display, and then inevitably move around right before I fucking tap It’s on the app store I can use it instantly. I can remove it instantly. I don’t know what sandboxing is I don’t care about privacy There are convenient share buttons I can use it on the single device I use regularly I can screenshot it I can unfortunately change the style by updating It can use my battery when it’s closed? Wait wha- ooh notification ... I’m gonna go use facebook now like a normal person, later nerds
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Every time I try to use Facebook app - on any platform - it breaks my workflow about 5 minutes in, because I can't post a link to a group (or another comment) in a comment. Some kinds of things are just a better fit for the web.
  - p1necone 8y ago
    I prefer native apps over web apps, but for most things I vastly prefer a website to both of those. I shouldn't have to install an app for every single thing I want to use, especially if I only use the thing once a week or so.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      That is what instant apps are for.
      - p1necone 8y ago
        As far as I can tell instant apps are just websites that are conveniently (for Google) locked into Googles ecosystem.
lcnmrn 8y ago
Actually, it makes me like Kotlin more than Swift and I’m macOS fan who happens to own an Android phone just for USB-C. It felt good when I published my first APK.
supernovae 8y ago
Yay for PWA! Please, if you're developing PWA's be sure to share them on all the marketplaces! Hardware/OS freedom would be amazing!
- vader1 8y ago
  Isn't windows mobile the only platform where PWA's can be submitted to the app store?
  - ColinWielga 8y ago
    PWA's are available through the store on Windows 10 on desktop as well
- pjmlp 8y ago
  PWAs are the only way I can see mobile Web actually being comparable to native, specially when being able to use native APIs like on Windows and ChromeOS (eventually Android as well).
chocolatebunny 8y ago
So is your development plans going forward to not develop native apps? Or use a wrapper like electron?
kllrnohj 8y ago
> I have to say it's such a giant bloated thing that it really does not make me want to write native code. In what way? How? Browser-based has the fast reload thing going for but it's not in the same universe as lean for a modern development stack, not in terms of RAM usage nor size on disk. So can you elaborate on this "bloated" vs. "lean"?
maxsilver 8y ago
> I have to say it's such a giant bloated thing that it really does not make me want to write native code. Why? You can write (and compile, and test) native code without ever touching Android Studio. I would think any like/hate of IntelliJ (Android Studio) should have no bearing on whether you choose to write native Android code or not. It would be like saying, "CLion is such a giant bloated thing that I never want to write C++ code". Or "RubyMine is so giant and bloated, I never want to touch Ruby on Rails again". What would you say, for example, if someone told you they didn't want to write a Progressive Web App because they really disliked Atom and Visual Studio Code?
- Scarbutt 8y ago
  If you are into masochism, sure, use Java without an IDE ;)
  - topspin 8y ago
    Hmm. I don't find that terribly masochistic. If you know the language, the basic java.* classes and your usual third parties libraries (guava, commons, etc.) well enough you can get a long way without and IDE. I've done a great deal of work -- typically maintenance and troubleshooting -- just cloning a repo and working in vim. I avoid any degree of dependence on IDEs for any part of building, packaging, etc. so... why bother with an IDE unless you really need IDE features?
    - balladeer 8y ago
      > unless you really need IDE features and that's very often if you are a Java/Android dev. Even features like auto complete (let alone with prediction) is very hard to get right elsewhere, let's say, somewhere like Vim. Not just the language, there's Android SDK itself and other libraries. But, if you count "not needing auto complete etc" as part of "know the language well enough" or that they trivial enough then, well, I rest my case.
      - topspin 8y ago
sdinsn 8y ago
> Developing for the browser is so much leaner HAHAHAHAHAHA Web apps are the most bloated thing I can imagine. Don't know what you are talking about
wstrange 8y ago
Have you considered Flutter? Supported by VSCode and IntelliJ community edition. Hot reload is the cat's PJs.
balladeer 8y ago
I am talking strictly about Android Studio and not the end results i.e. the apps. Giant? It's smaller than Xcode you know :) Bloated? Yes, so bloated! As an Android developer this is my biggest complaint from the ecosystem after the fragmentation though Google is trying to fix that with Treble but they are just not enough for the Studio. It was amazingly frustrating and pathetic to work with it couple of years back and it still is. My entire team is stuck on old Android Studio versions. I was the only one trying to live on the edge (and by that I mean stable channel) but for past few months I have just stopped upgrading Studio. It never fails to break the entire damn setup upon any upgrade. Like any release!
- pjmlp 8y ago
  The typical Android development update cycle. - Stable releases of Android Studio are usually followed by complaints of breaking left and right even though they take mounths to get out - Stable releases of Android Support Library usually always have a couple of regressions - Documentation and release notes always gets made available a couple of hours later - Kotlin plugin usually breaks at every release - NDK gets the attention level of a 20% project
  - balladeer 8y ago
    I had to copy the old ndk folder from a colleague's SDK and use it on mine after the update broke everything few weeks ago. I am not touching that thing again. Actually I am preparing myself to leave Android and get into backend dev, will keep in touch with Android dev as a hobby and maybe just to update my little used apps on PlayStore.
calferreira 8y ago
Although PWA are welcome, it doesn't solve every single issue. I believe there's space for both.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by TekMol 8y ago

watty 8y ago

Developing for the browser is leaner but it's the opposite for end-users. I hope PWAs are the future as well but native is still king for the time being.

TekMol 8y ago
As a user, I totally prefer a web app over a native app. Man .. don't even get me started .. ok, here we go: I can use it instantly. I can remove it instantly. The sandboxing is much better. The privacy is much better. I can link to it from wherever I like. I can use it on all my devices. I can copy text and images. I can change the style (I often enlarge the font for example). It can not use my battery / camera / phone when it's closed. ... I feel like I can go on forever.
- kuschku 8y ago
  I open 2 web apps at the same time, and the phone crashes (all RAM exhausted). I open a web app, and it lags horribly for minutes before becoming even semi-usable. This is on a Nexus 5X, using stock Android. Web apps are a complete joke right now. Entirely useless. I always install native apps, if available — even if I know I’ll uninstall it 5 minutes later — because the alternative is entirely unusable on my device.
  - TekMol 8y ago
    That does not make sense. Web apps do not consume more resources then websites. And usually less then native apps. I never had them crash any phone.
    - eropple 8y ago
      A web application burning through a ton of JavaScript and a very complex DOM can very easily start demanding a lot of CPU and RAM. I've never had a browser crash a phone, but having the phone start to immediately feel sluggish after opening something like a moderately sized GitHub pull request--that's certainly a thing.
    - jrs95 8y ago
      Perhaps android apps are relatively resource intensive or inefficient, but in terms of "web apps" like SPAs vs server rendered websites, web apps are doing more on the client. They inherently use more resources. Electron apps don't tend to have awful performance characteristics on the desktop just because they can't share the underlying Chrome instance, opening the same apps (like Slack) in the browser is only marginally better. And if native resource consumption on Android is really that bad, that would be pretty unique for that platform. iOS and desktop platforms definitely have much more efficient native apps than web apps. However making it more difficult to crash the device is a definite advantage, you're right about that. Although I very rarely have native apps crash my devices anyways. I can't remember a time it's happened on my phone, and on my desktop it's usually a device driver issue combined with a game that causes an issue. Definitely an edge case and not something I encounter with native applications in general.
    - kuschku 8y ago
      Too many websites at the same time cause the same issue. If I open a site like cnn.com without an adblocker, all apps running in background (even e.g. spotify if I'm listening to music) are force closed because the phone runs low on RAM. Every website or web app I've used so far has used > 100-200M RAM, while a well developed Android app stays below 20-50M. My phone has 2GB RAM, 1GB is used by the OS, 500-800M are used by Google Play Services, and a web browser with 1-2 tabs takes another 200M of RAM. As soon as I open a website any more complex than HN, everything feels sluggish.
      - eropple 8y ago
        Agreed. The DOM and JavaScript, as used by many heavy websites and web apps, are heavy. On the other hand, JavaScript in a more constrained environment--React Native, for example--is a lot more reasonable. Still heavier than an Android app, but not so heavy that it kills processes except on very downmarket phones.
- waivek 8y ago
  Do you use a web app or a native app for YouTube?
  - speeq 8y ago
    I've started using the YouTube website on iOS because it uses the native video player and is ad-free then (some people put an ad-break every few minutes on documentaries for example which is super annoying)
  - taeric 8y ago
    I switched to firefox on my android for both Facebook and Twitter. So far, I've had very little downside to this.
    - cobookman 8y ago
      +1 dropped facebook native app for their web version. Never looked back. I think the answer is some apps are better on web, others on native. Videos / Music / Games / Email / Messaging are better native. For actual reading of content (HN / Reddit / Twitter / Facebook ...etc) I find better on the web.
  - Yetanfou 8y ago
    Why, good you asked: a native app called NewPipe [1] which eats Youtube URL's and plays videos (and allows the download of such), no more - and that includes no ads - and no less. It only sends such data as needed to get the video. Lately it has started to support Soundcloud as well, I have not tried this yet. [1] https://newpipe.schabi.org/ https://newpipe.schabi.org/
- gascan 8y ago
  Do they work offline?
  - tazard 8y ago
    They can, yes. Some native apps don't work offline too.
    - diegoperini 8y ago
      It's actually harder to make a native app offline readable if it's entity relationship is complex.
- jzoch 8y ago
  > The privacy is much better. Is it? I strongly challenge that at least in the iOS ecosystem. Sandboxing and privacy on the web is not as strong in many cases as iOS.
specializeded 8y ago
As a hypothetical user who doesn’t post on niche tech forums, I totally prefer a native app over a web app It’s pretty It’s fast It’s not stuttery-stoppy I can swipe back and forth between pages without waiting 4 seconds for everything to display, and then inevitably move around right before I fucking tap It’s on the app store I can use it instantly. I can remove it instantly. I don’t know what sandboxing is I don’t care about privacy There are convenient share buttons I can use it on the single device I use regularly I can screenshot it I can unfortunately change the style by updating It can use my battery when it’s closed? Wait wha- ooh notification ... I’m gonna go use facebook now like a normal person, later nerds
- int_19h 8y ago
  Every time I try to use Facebook app - on any platform - it breaks my workflow about 5 minutes in, because I can't post a link to a group (or another comment) in a comment. Some kinds of things are just a better fit for the web.
- p1necone 8y ago
  I prefer native apps over web apps, but for most things I vastly prefer a website to both of those. I shouldn't have to install an app for every single thing I want to use, especially if I only use the thing once a week or so.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    That is what instant apps are for.
    - p1necone 8y ago
      As far as I can tell instant apps are just websites that are conveniently (for Google) locked into Googles ecosystem.

lcnmrn 8y ago

Actually, it makes me like Kotlin more than Swift and I’m macOS fan who happens to own an Android phone just for USB-C. It felt good when I published my first APK.

supernovae 8y ago

Yay for PWA! Please, if you're developing PWA's be sure to share them on all the marketplaces! Hardware/OS freedom would be amazing!

vader1 8y ago
Isn't windows mobile the only platform where PWA's can be submitted to the app store?
- ColinWielga 8y ago
  PWA's are available through the store on Windows 10 on desktop as well
pjmlp 8y ago
PWAs are the only way I can see mobile Web actually being comparable to native, specially when being able to use native APIs like on Windows and ChromeOS (eventually Android as well).

chocolatebunny 8y ago

So is your development plans going forward to not develop native apps? Or use a wrapper like electron?

kllrnohj 8y ago

> I have to say it's such a giant bloated thing that it really does not make me want to write native code. In what way? How? Browser-based has the fast reload thing going for but it's not in the same universe as lean for a modern development stack, not in terms of RAM usage nor size on disk. So can you elaborate on this "bloated" vs. "lean"?

maxsilver 8y ago

> I have to say it's such a giant bloated thing that it really does not make me want to write native code. Why? You can write (and compile, and test) native code without ever touching Android Studio. I would think any like/hate of IntelliJ (Android Studio) should have no bearing on whether you choose to write native Android code or not. It would be like saying, "CLion is such a giant bloated thing that I never want to write C++ code". Or "RubyMine is so giant and bloated, I never want to touch Ruby on Rails again". What would you say, for example, if someone told you they didn't want to write a Progressive Web App because they really disliked Atom and Visual Studio Code?

Scarbutt 8y ago
If you are into masochism, sure, use Java without an IDE ;)
- topspin 8y ago
  Hmm. I don't find that terribly masochistic. If you know the language, the basic java.* classes and your usual third parties libraries (guava, commons, etc.) well enough you can get a long way without and IDE. I've done a great deal of work -- typically maintenance and troubleshooting -- just cloning a repo and working in vim. I avoid any degree of dependence on IDEs for any part of building, packaging, etc. so... why bother with an IDE unless you really need IDE features?
  - balladeer 8y ago
    > unless you really need IDE features and that's very often if you are a Java/Android dev. Even features like auto complete (let alone with prediction) is very hard to get right elsewhere, let's say, somewhere like Vim. Not just the language, there's Android SDK itself and other libraries. But, if you count "not needing auto complete etc" as part of "know the language well enough" or that they trivial enough then, well, I rest my case.
    - topspin 8y ago

sdinsn 8y ago

> Developing for the browser is so much leaner HAHAHAHAHAHA Web apps are the most bloated thing I can imagine. Don't know what you are talking about

wstrange 8y ago

Have you considered Flutter? Supported by VSCode and IntelliJ community edition. Hot reload is the cat's PJs.

balladeer 8y ago

I am talking strictly about Android Studio and not the end results i.e. the apps. Giant? It's smaller than Xcode you know :) Bloated? Yes, so bloated! As an Android developer this is my biggest complaint from the ecosystem after the fragmentation though Google is trying to fix that with Treble but they are just not enough for the Studio. It was amazingly frustrating and pathetic to work with it couple of years back and it still is. My entire team is stuck on old Android Studio versions. I was the only one trying to live on the edge (and by that I mean stable channel) but for past few months I have just stopped upgrading Studio. It never fails to break the entire damn setup upon any upgrade. Like any release!

pjmlp 8y ago
The typical Android development update cycle. - Stable releases of Android Studio are usually followed by complaints of breaking left and right even though they take mounths to get out - Stable releases of Android Support Library usually always have a couple of regressions - Documentation and release notes always gets made available a couple of hours later - Kotlin plugin usually breaks at every release - NDK gets the attention level of a 20% project
- balladeer 8y ago
  I had to copy the old ndk folder from a colleague's SDK and use it on mine after the update broke everything few weeks ago. I am not touching that thing again. Actually I am preparing myself to leave Android and get into backend dev, will keep in touch with Android dev as a hobby and maybe just to update my little used apps on PlayStore.

calferreira 8y ago

Although PWA are welcome, it doesn't solve every single issue. I believe there's space for both.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]