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We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly. Absolutely. At least, that's what _I_ like doing. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequenc

We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly. Absolutely. At least, that's what _I_ like doing. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. If I have to endure constant harassment for being genderqueer in public, then the least you can do is own your tacit approval of folks who are doing the dirty work of making your proclivities reality.

umvi 8y ago
> Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, that's just a euphamism for "freedom of speech justifies jungle justice." I believe freedom of speech should be freedom from consequences for all but the most egregious forms of speech. I don't kick athiests off my projects even when they openly lambaste beliefs I hold dear on Twitter. I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. In the context of my project, code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, This argument is symmetrical. I get pushback for not being cis straight every day. For not shutting up and pretending. Every day. And your "non-conformist" views are in alignment with that pushback, no matter what methodology you want. Every moment you believe you have the right to dictate to someone how to live, who to love, or what to do with those feelings you give cover to the violence perpetrated in the name of those ideals. Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. > I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. I actually did that once. Even faster than I kicked off the person who had some racist views. At least most racists come by their views honestly in a society that has taught it to them at a fundamental level. Anti-vaxxers have far less excuse. > code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I don't think I've ever met a developer so valuable that I can ignore the externalities surrounding them. I accept one might exist, but if they don't convince me of this fact they've failed the test by definition. I can write the code, or get someone else to write it. There's no shortage of such opportunity in 2018. > I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions. So do I. Neither of us gets what we want, now do we? But keep in mind, the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying here because a project is changing its code of conduct specifically for in-band communication. So forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.
  - chris_mc 8y ago
    It really pisses me off that you are down-voted for this as it's all extremely valid reasoning that makes sense. You get shit on because of who you are at your core every day you walk this Earth, and with this code of conduct they are only expected not to shit on you with a minimal level of respect, but that seems too far a bridge for these assholes.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      I didn't do this because I am upvoted or appeciated. I contribute on HN almost exclusively so I have the karma to burn in situations like this. I consider threads and stories like this as one of my most important contributions to this website. 𐑚𐑰𐑦𐑙 𐑝𐑦𐑟𐑦𐑚𐑳𐑤 𐑦𐑯 𐑞𐑺 𐑲-𐑤𐑲𐑯, 𐑩𐑟 𐑕𐑳𐑥𐑢𐑳𐑯 𐑢𐑦𐑔 𐑒𐑮𐑧𐑛𐑦𐑚𐑦𐑤𐑦𐑑𐑰 𐑯 𐑝𐑷𐑤𐑘𐑵𐑥, 𐑦𐑟 𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤 𐑑 𐑒𐑰𐑐𐑦𐑙 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑐𐑰𐑐𐑳𐑤 𐑷𐑓-𐑚𐑨𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑕. ;)
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > I get pushback for not being cis straight every day What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? > Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. I believe you. But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. > I actually did that once. You should not be proud about it. > the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying Nobody actually adopted this strategy yet, but even if anybody did, they are talking about CoC in their project, dealing with the code they personally implemented, not throwing people out for off-project disagreement.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      > What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? People call my workplace asking if they're aware they have a "pervert", "unregistered sex offender", "deranged faggot" and others. They've contacted senior management at various employers. They've registered spurious conduct complaints against me. When I owned a company, I narrowly avoided several disasters I don't even want to talk about involving physical security. I've been doxxed, threatened, and had threatening physical mail left in my mailbox. In this very HN page people have told me I'm mentally ill and therefore okay to disregard as a human. I'm genderfluid, but spend most of my experience feeling asexual. No one has ever seen me present as female in public. I can only imagine how much more insane it is for folks actually presenting across their assigned gender line. And I live in San Francisco. So you sit here and write to me about how sad you are that you might need to behave yourself in the context of a software project. I hear you. It sounds rough, and I wish you luck. But I've been driven to the brink of suicide by harassers, my partner has only fared a bit better. I'm offering to switch positions if you'd like. Or maybe you could police your communities the way I'm obligated to police mine. > But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. I think transparency and equal exposure IS a form of justice. I'd love to live my life in public without fear. It's all these folks asymmetrically leveraging my exposure and their anonymity. So I'm afraid your complaint has fallen on ideologically deaf ears, you think something is axiomatically bad and I think it's axiomatically good. If they don't want the judgement of their peers, then they shouldn't live that life. Just like folks tell me. It's surely a choice to act that way. > You should not be proud about it. You should not be proud of defending reprehensible and dehumanizing opinions simply on the pretense of economically valuable contributions, which is the fundamental thesis of nearly everyone's complaint in open source conduct standards these days. > , they are talking about CoC in their project But this is a lie right here, isn't it? It isn't "their" project. It's community owned and they could fork it, couldn't they? This would not even be possible if it were not accepted by the majority and the leadership. Let's not pretend that this is some minority forcing its will on the majority. Quite the contrary, the proposal of a "kill switch" is exactly the tactic adopted by a minority hoping to hold what they see as a point of leverage. They simply wouldn't need this tactic if their opinion was a majority.
kjeetgill 8y ago
I vouched for this one. At the very least it's a sincere perspective worth discussing and disagreeing with vocally; not flagging to death. It didn't strike me as a troll. KirinDave: I think this mentality is somewhat destructive. Your feelings on the matter are justified given your situation but to some degree you're just being the same kind of asshole you're mad about too. > Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. Yea, so? Those consequences aren't free from criticism. Whether they're disproportionate is perfectly topical. Public mob retaliation is notoriously so. I'm not strictly disagreeing with you: calling someone to task for something they said publicly might be plenty reasonable but "We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly." Might be inappropriate too.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I appreciate the vouch. Some folks on twitter sent me some screenshots of folks coordinating on both IRC and a Discord to bring more accounts in to flag and downvote my posts. One of them was specifically defending ESR. This entire thread and article is not about the terms of the CoC. The article has no real complaints about its specific clauses or content. People here do not claim content greivances either, they claim it's part of "identity politics" (as opposed to non-identical-based politics which totally are white men's politics) down their throats, and talk about the final consequences and slippery slopes they vaguely threaten to invoke. This article and this discussion are about cutural control. The Linux leadership has made a decision and specific people who promote bias-white and bias-male identity politics are looking to threaten a challenge for that control. > I'm not strictly disagreeing with you: calling someone to task for something they said publicly might be plenty reasonable but "We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly." Might be inappropriate too I don't think this is about being an asshole, or civility. For many people this about the right to live, or the right for essential human rights, or the right for redress for centuries-long policies of inequality and destruction. The fact that folks want to paint the simple act of being open about political contributions (which used to be required) as a bias in and of itself is telling. Let's have this debate in public. With our real names and faces, and even stakes for everyone.
  - jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
sjapkee 8y ago
>genderqueer Forget the word "gender". There is only sex (male and female, no more) and nothing more.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  This is a tactic typically invoked by people with a anti-trans agenda. Gender, sex and sexuality are in fact multi-dimensional things with some broad clustering. Either the argument is, "Gender isn't real, all cultural norms stem directly from biology." Obviously and trivially false. Or the argument is, "Gender should be destroyed as it holds people back," which is just a semantics game to penalize some LGBT+ people choosing taxonomies to describe their experience that other people don't like the visibility of."
  - sjapkee 8y ago
    >Gender, sex and sexuality are in fact multi-dimensional things with some broad clustering. And of course you can give links to scientific papers about it, don't you? Because it's simple. If you were born as male - you are male. If you were born as female - you are female. If your sex and "gender" are different - you have mental disorder.
    - umvi 8y ago
      > If you were born as male - you are male. If you were born as female It's a tad more complicated than that, even at the biological level. Your sex is determined by your chromosomes, but for example, you can be born with chromosomes XXY. Which biological sex is XXY? Admittedly, this is an extremely rare occurrence. I guess you could argue that "presence of Y = male, absence of Y = female" to make it unambiguous.
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        There are peopel born with XY chromosomes that have functioning uteruses and ovaries. So its obviously not as simple as "There is a Y here."
jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
> If I have to endure constant harassment for being genderqueer in public No one gives a shit. Can you write good code? Yes, cool awesome welcome to the project. Do you write bad code? Then piss off. We don't need a useless CoC because of non-relevant issues you face in your personal life.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  I give a shit, and I'm highly incentivized to make you give a shit too.
  - _Tev 8y ago
    And others are thus highly incentivized to publicly block your attempts for politicizing FOSS project. See how that works?
  - jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
    >I give a shit Then go cry in the corner, instead of being an asshole on the internet.
- pas 8y ago
  If you only care about the code, why do you even care about the CoC, it's not a .c, .cc, .h, .s, .mk file.

umvi 8y ago

> Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, that's just a euphamism for "freedom of speech justifies jungle justice." I believe freedom of speech should be freedom from consequences for all but the most egregious forms of speech. I don't kick athiests off my projects even when they openly lambaste beliefs I hold dear on Twitter. I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. In the context of my project, code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions.

KirinDave 8y ago
> Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, This argument is symmetrical. I get pushback for not being cis straight every day. For not shutting up and pretending. Every day. And your "non-conformist" views are in alignment with that pushback, no matter what methodology you want. Every moment you believe you have the right to dictate to someone how to live, who to love, or what to do with those feelings you give cover to the violence perpetrated in the name of those ideals. Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. > I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. I actually did that once. Even faster than I kicked off the person who had some racist views. At least most racists come by their views honestly in a society that has taught it to them at a fundamental level. Anti-vaxxers have far less excuse. > code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I don't think I've ever met a developer so valuable that I can ignore the externalities surrounding them. I accept one might exist, but if they don't convince me of this fact they've failed the test by definition. I can write the code, or get someone else to write it. There's no shortage of such opportunity in 2018. > I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions. So do I. Neither of us gets what we want, now do we? But keep in mind, the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying here because a project is changing its code of conduct specifically for in-band communication. So forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.
- chris_mc 8y ago
  It really pisses me off that you are down-voted for this as it's all extremely valid reasoning that makes sense. You get shit on because of who you are at your core every day you walk this Earth, and with this code of conduct they are only expected not to shit on you with a minimal level of respect, but that seems too far a bridge for these assholes.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    I didn't do this because I am upvoted or appeciated. I contribute on HN almost exclusively so I have the karma to burn in situations like this. I consider threads and stories like this as one of my most important contributions to this website. 𐑚𐑰𐑦𐑙 𐑝𐑦𐑟𐑦𐑚𐑳𐑤 𐑦𐑯 𐑞𐑺 𐑲-𐑤𐑲𐑯, 𐑩𐑟 𐑕𐑳𐑥𐑢𐑳𐑯 𐑢𐑦𐑔 𐑒𐑮𐑧𐑛𐑦𐑚𐑦𐑤𐑦𐑑𐑰 𐑯 𐑝𐑷𐑤𐑘𐑵𐑥, 𐑦𐑟 𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦𐑒𐑩𐑤 𐑑 𐑒𐑰𐑐𐑦𐑙 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑐𐑰𐑐𐑳𐑤 𐑷𐑓-𐑚𐑨𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑕. ;)
- smsm42 8y ago
  > I get pushback for not being cis straight every day What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? > Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. I believe you. But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. > I actually did that once. You should not be proud about it. > the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying Nobody actually adopted this strategy yet, but even if anybody did, they are talking about CoC in their project, dealing with the code they personally implemented, not throwing people out for off-project disagreement.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    > What you mean by pushback? Demands for you to be removed from a project because you are not cis? Organized boycotts of the projects you participate in because you're a member? Could you give an example of the pushback like that? People call my workplace asking if they're aware they have a "pervert", "unregistered sex offender", "deranged faggot" and others. They've contacted senior management at various employers. They've registered spurious conduct complaints against me. When I owned a company, I narrowly avoided several disasters I don't even want to talk about involving physical security. I've been doxxed, threatened, and had threatening physical mail left in my mailbox. In this very HN page people have told me I'm mentally ill and therefore okay to disregard as a human. I'm genderfluid, but spend most of my experience feeling asexual. No one has ever seen me present as female in public. I can only imagine how much more insane it is for folks actually presenting across their assigned gender line. And I live in San Francisco. So you sit here and write to me about how sad you are that you might need to behave yourself in the context of a software project. I hear you. It sounds rough, and I wish you luck. But I've been driven to the brink of suicide by harassers, my partner has only fared a bit better. I'm offering to switch positions if you'd like. Or maybe you could police your communities the way I'm obligated to police mine. > But if you believe that gives you justification to do to the other people the injustices that have been done to you - you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Your suffering is real, but it's no excuse to create more suffering for others. I think transparency and equal exposure IS a form of justice. I'd love to live my life in public without fear. It's all these folks asymmetrically leveraging my exposure and their anonymity. So I'm afraid your complaint has fallen on ideologically deaf ears, you think something is axiomatically bad and I think it's axiomatically good. If they don't want the judgement of their peers, then they shouldn't live that life. Just like folks tell me. It's surely a choice to act that way. > You should not be proud about it. You should not be proud of defending reprehensible and dehumanizing opinions simply on the pretense of economically valuable contributions, which is the fundamental thesis of nearly everyone's complaint in open source conduct standards these days. > , they are talking about CoC in their project But this is a lie right here, isn't it? It isn't "their" project. It's community owned and they could fork it, couldn't they? This would not even be possible if it were not accepted by the majority and the leadership. Let's not pretend that this is some minority forcing its will on the majority. Quite the contrary, the proposal of a "kill switch" is exactly the tactic adopted by a minority hoping to hold what they see as a point of leverage. They simply wouldn't need this tactic if their opinion was a majority.

kjeetgill 8y ago

I vouched for this one. At the very least it's a sincere perspective worth discussing and disagreeing with vocally; not flagging to death. It didn't strike me as a troll. KirinDave: I think this mentality is somewhat destructive. Your feelings on the matter are justified given your situation but to some degree you're just being the same kind of asshole you're mad about too. > Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. Yea, so? Those consequences aren't free from criticism. Whether they're disproportionate is perfectly topical. Public mob retaliation is notoriously so. I'm not strictly disagreeing with you: calling someone to task for something they said publicly might be plenty reasonable but "We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly." Might be inappropriate too.

KirinDave 8y ago
I appreciate the vouch. Some folks on twitter sent me some screenshots of folks coordinating on both IRC and a Discord to bring more accounts in to flag and downvote my posts. One of them was specifically defending ESR. This entire thread and article is not about the terms of the CoC. The article has no real complaints about its specific clauses or content. People here do not claim content greivances either, they claim it's part of "identity politics" (as opposed to non-identical-based politics which totally are white men's politics) down their throats, and talk about the final consequences and slippery slopes they vaguely threaten to invoke. This article and this discussion are about cutural control. The Linux leadership has made a decision and specific people who promote bias-white and bias-male identity politics are looking to threaten a challenge for that control. > I'm not strictly disagreeing with you: calling someone to task for something they said publicly might be plenty reasonable but "We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly." Might be inappropriate too I don't think this is about being an asshole, or civility. For many people this about the right to live, or the right for essential human rights, or the right for redress for centuries-long policies of inequality and destruction. The fact that folks want to paint the simple act of being open about political contributions (which used to be required) as a bias in and of itself is telling. Let's have this debate in public. With our real names and faces, and even stakes for everyone.
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago

sjapkee 8y ago

>genderqueer Forget the word "gender". There is only sex (male and female, no more) and nothing more.

KirinDave 8y ago
This is a tactic typically invoked by people with a anti-trans agenda. Gender, sex and sexuality are in fact multi-dimensional things with some broad clustering. Either the argument is, "Gender isn't real, all cultural norms stem directly from biology." Obviously and trivially false. Or the argument is, "Gender should be destroyed as it holds people back," which is just a semantics game to penalize some LGBT+ people choosing taxonomies to describe their experience that other people don't like the visibility of."
- sjapkee 8y ago
  >Gender, sex and sexuality are in fact multi-dimensional things with some broad clustering. And of course you can give links to scientific papers about it, don't you? Because it's simple. If you were born as male - you are male. If you were born as female - you are female. If your sex and "gender" are different - you have mental disorder.
  - umvi 8y ago
    > If you were born as male - you are male. If you were born as female It's a tad more complicated than that, even at the biological level. Your sex is determined by your chromosomes, but for example, you can be born with chromosomes XXY. Which biological sex is XXY? Admittedly, this is an extremely rare occurrence. I guess you could argue that "presence of Y = male, absence of Y = female" to make it unambiguous.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      There are peopel born with XY chromosomes that have functioning uteruses and ovaries. So its obviously not as simple as "There is a Y here."

jaxtellerSoA 8y ago

> If I have to endure constant harassment for being genderqueer in public No one gives a shit. Can you write good code? Yes, cool awesome welcome to the project. Do you write bad code? Then piss off. We don't need a useless CoC because of non-relevant issues you face in your personal life.

KirinDave 8y ago
I give a shit, and I'm highly incentivized to make you give a shit too.
- _Tev 8y ago
  And others are thus highly incentivized to publicly block your attempts for politicizing FOSS project. See how that works?
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
  >I give a shit Then go cry in the corner, instead of being an asshole on the internet.
pas 8y ago
If you only care about the code, why do you even care about the CoC, it's not a .c, .cc, .h, .s, .mk file.