10 ms·

Because: "In all that time I never had to know or care whether my fellow contributors were white, black, male, female, straight, gay, or from the planet Mars,

Because: "In all that time I never had to know or care whether my fellow contributors were white, black, male, female, straight, gay, or from the planet Mars, only whether their code was good’; namely, in a project that receives contributions from volunteers who are anonymous beyond a chosen handle, specious claims of exclusion and harassment crumble beneath the most haphazard scrutiny. Contributors reveal as much about their race, sex, and orientation as they want because no one cares about that tangential shit at the end of the day. If there really was some “straight white males only” mentality, the community would insist on determining whether a new contributor is “one of us” before accepting their code, but they don’t do that in the slightest. Thus, it’s patently clear there is no culture of exclusion, but rather a culture of total indifference to individual differences beyond coding ability. The rhetoric of diversity and inclusiveness is just a weapon being used to attack a community that is inherently opposed to identity politics, which is why they’re seen as such a threat to these SJW gestapo." The CoC is nothing but force feeding political vomit down coders throats. Who by the way, don't give two shits weather a contributor is a woman, black, gay, etc.

KirinDave 8y ago
What part of the CoC requires you reveal anything? It simply says you can't treat people unprofessionally. Why do you want to treat people unprofessionally?
- cabraca 8y ago
  if you read his post again, you will see he never said that he wants to treat people unprofessionally. he sees the CoC as a tool to push identity politics in a community thats based on merit.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    And that's his read on it. I think it's objectively wrong. If someone wanted to use a CoC to do that, you'd write a very different CoC. This one is so soft-touch it barely does anything other than say, "Keep it SFW, kids!"
    - jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
      >"Keep it SFW, kids!" Coders aren't children, which is is why CoC is useless.
  - liftbigweights 8y ago
    Of course. CoCs/etc have been used by the extremist leftists to push identity politics everywhere. It's their tool to bully and attack people they disagree with. No difference than the bible/etc is a tool used by extremists to bully and attack people. They don't want professionalism, they want a tool to attack people with. Linux, internet, etc has been around for decades and working fine. All of a sudden a bunch of extremists are trying to destroy it just for their own political agenda.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      Maybe consider some other community less dedicated to classical liberal ideals to contribute your software to, Mr. BigWeights. Maybe Vulkan or OpenGL. Oh wait; they're putting a basic CoC over those projects too. Perhaps there are local State Surveillance projects you'd be happy to contribute to?
      - smsm42 8y ago
        A: We are all for inclusion and being welcoming and professional! That's what the CoC is about and only that! B: But the behavior of some most active CoC proponents is not exactly welcoming and professional, are you sure that's what you are about? A: GTFO, maybe there are some spy agencies that agree to take a deplorable like you. We certainly don't want your kind here. B: Sigh.
        cannabis_sam 8y ago
        A: <reasonable statement> B: <unsubstatiated allegation> A: <reasonable dismissal> B: <cries of oppression>
        KirinDave 8y ago
        B: But the behavior of some most active CoC proponents is not exactly welcoming and professional, are you sure that's what you are about? A: Arguing that a CoC should be welcoming to the behavioral abuses it is trying to protect is sophistry no one should feel the need to engage with honestly. It's as absurd as those, "To be tolerant you must be tolerant of intolerance" arguments that people raise as if they're credible or novel. We also laugh at those. B: Sigh.
  - Double_a_92 8y ago
    Of course it's about identity politics. Why else would the need to clarify "everyone" with a limited list of specific characteristics? The word is literally EVERYONE... How is that not inclusive enough?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- umvi 8y ago
  Can I have a non-conformist opinion about gay marriage, abortion, transgenderism, etc. outside of the project? Or will activists do their best to hunt down my online handles and use the CoCs to get me kicked off any FOSS projects I contribute to? Because I've seen this happen on GitHub projects.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly. Absolutely. At least, that's what _I_ like doing. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. If I have to endure constant harassment for being genderqueer in public, then the least you can do is own your tacit approval of folks who are doing the dirty work of making your proclivities reality.
    - umvi 8y ago
      > Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, that's just a euphamism for "freedom of speech justifies jungle justice." I believe freedom of speech should be freedom from consequences for all but the most egregious forms of speech. I don't kick athiests off my projects even when they openly lambaste beliefs I hold dear on Twitter. I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. In the context of my project, code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions.
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        > Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, This argument is symmetrical. I get pushback for not being cis straight every day. For not shutting up and pretending. Every day. And your "non-conformist" views are in alignment with that pushback, no matter what methodology you want. Every moment you believe you have the right to dictate to someone how to live, who to love, or what to do with those feelings you give cover to the violence perpetrated in the name of those ideals. Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. > I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. I actually did that once. Even faster than I kicked off the person who had some racist views. At least most racists come by their views honestly in a society that has taught it to them at a fundamental level. Anti-vaxxers have far less excuse. > code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I don't think I've ever met a developer so valuable that I can ignore the externalities surrounding them. I accept one might exist, but if they don't convince me of this fact they've failed the test by definition. I can write the code, or get someone else to write it. There's no shortage of such opportunity in 2018. > I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions. So do I. Neither of us gets what we want, now do we? But keep in mind, the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying here because a project is changing its code of conduct specifically for in-band communication. So forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.
- haversine02 8y ago
  That's a motte-and-bailey argument. The easy to defend idea of CoC is of course that one shouldn't discriminate and act unprofessionally. But declaring a CoC is just the first step - it needs to be enforced. And by design the enforcement seems to involve backroom committees and no chance for the accused to even know about specific allegations, let alone defend against them. It can result in downright kafkaesque situations and unnecessarily forces identity politics into the mix.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    The Drupal "he didn't know" argument was widely disproven. You should go look it up. Besides that, do you have a concrete example of how the CoC actually defines an unfair practice, rather than an argument from final consequence?
    - true_religion 8y ago
      University code of conducts have lead to some pretty egregious violations of common sense. For example, I know of a black girl who was harassed using the code of conduct. Her harasser was white, and constantly complained of being made to feel unsafe—-no actual accusations mind you, just a feeling she had. Unfortunately making someone feel unsafe is against the university code of conduct, so each incident resulted in a long tribunal before everyone concluded that nothing had happened. It was a waste of time, and lead to the humiliiation of the black girl, whom was always innocent, but to people who didnt know her only saw that she was being accused of something. Universiities have more, not less, infrastructure to deal with adjucating code of conducts. They get to do it in person, and have written guidelines of how to conduct enforcement. And yet situations like I described are not uncommon. How do you think a software group will fare in comparision?
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        So what you're saying is a racist find a way to abuse the rules and no one thought to change the rules in the face of obvious abuse? This just reminded us we need to be vigilant for folks abusing the rules, and be prepared to alert them in a public & justified way to prevent CoC Snyder by truly dedicated and despicable racists and sexist. Good moral!
- bigbugbag 8y ago
  Look at what consequences the introduction of this Coc in other project had: witch hunts. for example: https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/26/sex-and-gor-and-open-source/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/26/sex-and-gor-and-open-sourc... Or the example provided in the posted article where Sage Sharp call for banning theodore ts'o based on this Coc while breaking said CoC in the process.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    So: you're not gonna answer the question. Just relate finding out a dude was abusing his position in the Drupal project to use their conference facilities for Gorean promotional efforts? Calling that a "witch hunt" is ridiculous. Maybe he should have kept his personal life out of his work like ya'll say you do.
    - smsm42 8y ago
      That's exactly what Drupal maintainer in question was doing. People have worked with him for years and didn't have a tiniest idea about his personal life (as it should have properly been). Until somebody got a beef with him and decided to make his personal life a public issue. So no, "he should have kept his personal life out of his work" doesn't work. You also probably know this exactly argument had been used numerous time to persecute gay and trans-gender people if they revealed (or had been revealed) as such. So hearing it in this context is especially strange.
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        > That's exactly what Drupal maintainer in question was doing. People have worked with him for years and didn't have a tiniest idea about his personal life (as it should have properly been). Until somebody got a beef with him and decided to make his personal life a public issue. A lovely rewriting of history. There were harassment complaints that kicked the whole thing off. What's more, he was presenting this stuff in public at Drupal events as a representative of Drupal. So double no. It wasn't some kinkshaming whim. > You also probably know this exactly argument had been used numerous time to persecute gay and trans-gender people Please kindly drop that horseshit down the caldera of a volcano. It's an absurd category error that even you surely see through.
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  > Why do you want to treat people unprofessionally? The best argument against CoCs is how their most fervent proponents behave as if the rules in the CoC don't apply to themselves. A variety of pro-CoC comments from various people in this topic could easily be construed as contravening some or all of the following examples of unacceptable behavior extracted from the Linux CoC: -Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks -Public or private harassment -Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting
- jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
  You are already not required to reveal anything. So why on earth would I want to enact such blatant bullshit?
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    So don't? You're not even a linux contributor, are you?
bena 8y ago
It's not just about targeting developers based on race, sex, or orientation. It's about making comments that could be derogatory to such in certain lights making them feel unwelcome. Something as seemingly innocuous as "don't get your panties in a twist" could be seen as unwelcoming to women as "panties" is the traditional word for female underwear so it implies that the person you're talking to is not only a woman, but that women get frustrated over inconsequential things. And you could have easily said "don't take it personally" and gotten the same point across. That the person is over-blowing something inconsequential.
SpecialistEMT 8y ago
Easy to say if you're a white man that you don't care about skin color and gender

KirinDave 8y ago

What part of the CoC requires you reveal anything? It simply says you can't treat people unprofessionally. Why do you want to treat people unprofessionally?

cabraca 8y ago
if you read his post again, you will see he never said that he wants to treat people unprofessionally. he sees the CoC as a tool to push identity politics in a community thats based on merit.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  And that's his read on it. I think it's objectively wrong. If someone wanted to use a CoC to do that, you'd write a very different CoC. This one is so soft-touch it barely does anything other than say, "Keep it SFW, kids!"
  - jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
    >"Keep it SFW, kids!" Coders aren't children, which is is why CoC is useless.
- liftbigweights 8y ago
  Of course. CoCs/etc have been used by the extremist leftists to push identity politics everywhere. It's their tool to bully and attack people they disagree with. No difference than the bible/etc is a tool used by extremists to bully and attack people. They don't want professionalism, they want a tool to attack people with. Linux, internet, etc has been around for decades and working fine. All of a sudden a bunch of extremists are trying to destroy it just for their own political agenda.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    Maybe consider some other community less dedicated to classical liberal ideals to contribute your software to, Mr. BigWeights. Maybe Vulkan or OpenGL. Oh wait; they're putting a basic CoC over those projects too. Perhaps there are local State Surveillance projects you'd be happy to contribute to?
    - smsm42 8y ago
      A: We are all for inclusion and being welcoming and professional! That's what the CoC is about and only that! B: But the behavior of some most active CoC proponents is not exactly welcoming and professional, are you sure that's what you are about? A: GTFO, maybe there are some spy agencies that agree to take a deplorable like you. We certainly don't want your kind here. B: Sigh.
      - cannabis_sam 8y ago
        A: <reasonable statement> B: <unsubstatiated allegation> A: <reasonable dismissal> B: <cries of oppression>
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        B: But the behavior of some most active CoC proponents is not exactly welcoming and professional, are you sure that's what you are about? A: Arguing that a CoC should be welcoming to the behavioral abuses it is trying to protect is sophistry no one should feel the need to engage with honestly. It's as absurd as those, "To be tolerant you must be tolerant of intolerance" arguments that people raise as if they're credible or novel. We also laugh at those. B: Sigh.
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  Of course it's about identity politics. Why else would the need to clarify "everyone" with a limited list of specific characteristics? The word is literally EVERYONE... How is that not inclusive enough?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
umvi 8y ago
Can I have a non-conformist opinion about gay marriage, abortion, transgenderism, etc. outside of the project? Or will activists do their best to hunt down my online handles and use the CoCs to get me kicked off any FOSS projects I contribute to? Because I've seen this happen on GitHub projects.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  We will hunt you down and make you own your opinions publicly. Absolutely. At least, that's what _I_ like doing. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. If I have to endure constant harassment for being genderqueer in public, then the least you can do is own your tacit approval of folks who are doing the dirty work of making your proclivities reality.
  - umvi 8y ago
    > Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, that's just a euphamism for "freedom of speech justifies jungle justice." I believe freedom of speech should be freedom from consequences for all but the most egregious forms of speech. I don't kick athiests off my projects even when they openly lambaste beliefs I hold dear on Twitter. I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. In the context of my project, code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      > Yeah but when you and your kin are the self appointed constables of inflicting said consequences, This argument is symmetrical. I get pushback for not being cis straight every day. For not shutting up and pretending. Every day. And your "non-conformist" views are in alignment with that pushback, no matter what methodology you want. Every moment you believe you have the right to dictate to someone how to live, who to love, or what to do with those feelings you give cover to the violence perpetrated in the name of those ideals. Being a minority component of society is no fun, huh? Believe me, I know. > I don't kick anti-vaxxers off my projects even though they openly spread misinformation. I actually did that once. Even faster than I kicked off the person who had some racist views. At least most racists come by their views honestly in a society that has taught it to them at a fundamental level. Anti-vaxxers have far less excuse. > code is king and as long as everyone is treating each other with respect, that's all that matters. I don't think I've ever met a developer so valuable that I can ignore the externalities surrounding them. I accept one might exist, but if they don't convince me of this fact they've failed the test by definition. I can write the code, or get someone else to write it. There's no shortage of such opportunity in 2018. > I expect the same courtesy from other project maintainers if people disagree with (off-project) opinions. So do I. Neither of us gets what we want, now do we? But keep in mind, the top post here is about a group of conservatives adopting the very strategy you're decrying here because a project is changing its code of conduct specifically for in-band communication. So forgive me if I don't take you very seriously.
haversine02 8y ago
That's a motte-and-bailey argument. The easy to defend idea of CoC is of course that one shouldn't discriminate and act unprofessionally. But declaring a CoC is just the first step - it needs to be enforced. And by design the enforcement seems to involve backroom committees and no chance for the accused to even know about specific allegations, let alone defend against them. It can result in downright kafkaesque situations and unnecessarily forces identity politics into the mix.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  The Drupal "he didn't know" argument was widely disproven. You should go look it up. Besides that, do you have a concrete example of how the CoC actually defines an unfair practice, rather than an argument from final consequence?
  - true_religion 8y ago
    University code of conducts have lead to some pretty egregious violations of common sense. For example, I know of a black girl who was harassed using the code of conduct. Her harasser was white, and constantly complained of being made to feel unsafe—-no actual accusations mind you, just a feeling she had. Unfortunately making someone feel unsafe is against the university code of conduct, so each incident resulted in a long tribunal before everyone concluded that nothing had happened. It was a waste of time, and lead to the humiliiation of the black girl, whom was always innocent, but to people who didnt know her only saw that she was being accused of something. Universiities have more, not less, infrastructure to deal with adjucating code of conducts. They get to do it in person, and have written guidelines of how to conduct enforcement. And yet situations like I described are not uncommon. How do you think a software group will fare in comparision?
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      So what you're saying is a racist find a way to abuse the rules and no one thought to change the rules in the face of obvious abuse? This just reminded us we need to be vigilant for folks abusing the rules, and be prepared to alert them in a public & justified way to prevent CoC Snyder by truly dedicated and despicable racists and sexist. Good moral!
bigbugbag 8y ago
Look at what consequences the introduction of this Coc in other project had: witch hunts. for example: https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/26/sex-and-gor-and-open-source/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/26/sex-and-gor-and-open-sourc... Or the example provided in the posted article where Sage Sharp call for banning theodore ts'o based on this Coc while breaking said CoC in the process.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  So: you're not gonna answer the question. Just relate finding out a dude was abusing his position in the Drupal project to use their conference facilities for Gorean promotional efforts? Calling that a "witch hunt" is ridiculous. Maybe he should have kept his personal life out of his work like ya'll say you do.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    That's exactly what Drupal maintainer in question was doing. People have worked with him for years and didn't have a tiniest idea about his personal life (as it should have properly been). Until somebody got a beef with him and decided to make his personal life a public issue. So no, "he should have kept his personal life out of his work" doesn't work. You also probably know this exactly argument had been used numerous time to persecute gay and trans-gender people if they revealed (or had been revealed) as such. So hearing it in this context is especially strange.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      > That's exactly what Drupal maintainer in question was doing. People have worked with him for years and didn't have a tiniest idea about his personal life (as it should have properly been). Until somebody got a beef with him and decided to make his personal life a public issue. A lovely rewriting of history. There were harassment complaints that kicked the whole thing off. What's more, he was presenting this stuff in public at Drupal events as a representative of Drupal. So double no. It wasn't some kinkshaming whim. > You also probably know this exactly argument had been used numerous time to persecute gay and trans-gender people Please kindly drop that horseshit down the caldera of a volcano. It's an absurd category error that even you surely see through.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
> Why do you want to treat people unprofessionally? The best argument against CoCs is how their most fervent proponents behave as if the rules in the CoC don't apply to themselves. A variety of pro-CoC comments from various people in this topic could easily be construed as contravening some or all of the following examples of unacceptable behavior extracted from the Linux CoC: -Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks -Public or private harassment -Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting
jaxtellerSoA 8y ago
You are already not required to reveal anything. So why on earth would I want to enact such blatant bullshit?
- KirinDave 8y ago
  So don't? You're not even a linux contributor, are you?

bena 8y ago

It's not just about targeting developers based on race, sex, or orientation. It's about making comments that could be derogatory to such in certain lights making them feel unwelcome. Something as seemingly innocuous as "don't get your panties in a twist" could be seen as unwelcoming to women as "panties" is the traditional word for female underwear so it implies that the person you're talking to is not only a woman, but that women get frustrated over inconsequential things. And you could have easily said "don't take it personally" and gotten the same point across. That the person is over-blowing something inconsequential.

SpecialistEMT 8y ago

Easy to say if you're a white man that you don't care about skin color and gender