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It's also illegal in Canada. With amateur radio "dying" as an interesting hobby (my opinion, but widely held) it is often speculated that if encryption was per

It's also illegal in Canada. With amateur radio "dying" as an interesting hobby (my opinion, but widely held) it is often speculated that if encryption was permitted in amateur radio communications, there would be quite a resurgence in interest. I predict a new generation would start to pick up the hobby and find untold uses (and abuses) for it.

wedowhatwedo 8y ago
Yes, if encryption was permitted, there would be a ton of interest...by commercial companies. Non-licensed users would out number licensed ones by huge amounts. It would put an end to amateur radio.
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  Requiring messages be signed by and for keys belonging to licensed amateurs might be sufficient to discourage abuse.
  - janoc 8y ago
    And how would you distinguish licensed users from unlicensed ones if the messages are encrypted? Heck, the authorities have problems policing the bands even without having to deal with crypto.
    - tlrobinson 8y ago
      Licensed amateurs would be required to register the public keys (not private keys, of course) they want to to sign messages on amateur bands.
  - wedowhatwedo 8y ago
    That's what this project does. It does signing, just not encryption. I would argue that this is OK legally.
    - tlrobinson 8y ago
      I understand. I’m suggesting we could allow actual encryption if the messages were also signed such that the sender and recipient (but not the content) were known. Abuse would require two licensed amateurs to cooperate to break the law and use the bands for commercial purposes. It would be easier to investigate suspected abuse (compared to unsigned encrypted messages, but not cleartext messages, of course)
brians 8y ago
There are more hams in the US, and more active hams, than ever before. That's a funny sort of dying! Joe Taylor's work on below-the-noise signal extraction has revitalized shortwave: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html , particularly at the nadir of the sunspot cycle. That's a funny sort of dying! Amateur satellites are accessible for $100 in parts: https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 ; with the same parts and some practice and luck you can talk to the space station. That's cool for anyone but especially cool for students; NASA will do more amateur radio work in 2018 than in any previous year. That's a funny sort of dying! If encryption were permitted on amateur bands, I'd expect to see commercialization right quick—along the same lines as the PACTOR modems embraced by the long-duration recreational sailing community: https://www.cruisingworld.com/staying-connected-at-sea https://www.cruisingworld.com/staying-connected-at-sea
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  I've actually seen my young amateur radio communities die off during this new solar minimum, and a lot of my friends sold their expensive equipment. You really need money and space right now unless you want to sit at your desk and do some of the new low SNR "can talk to the mars rover with a wet sock as an antenna" modes that a lot of people don't like because it's too easy and poses no challenge. There's also VHF/UHF, but that's mostly older clique's. It's definitely a slowly dying hobby.
  - madengr 8y ago
    You should be able to talk to anyone in the USA with 100W and a wire antenna. I think the bigger issue is noise in urban areas. The FCC does a shit job of regulating noisy equipment. I had to go through my house and dispose of certain Ethernet switches, an audio device, notebook power supply, etc.
- trothamel 8y ago
  Is there a good description of what those $100 in parts for satellite work are? Or better yet, something purchasable that's likely to work? I've been wanting to get into it, but I've never found a really accessible guide to getting started in satellite communication.
janoc 8y ago
If encryption was allowed, all that would happen is that people would start to use HAM bands as a cheap way to wirelessly connect to the internet or to build private communication links. Totally negating their purpose. If you are after this (why would otherwise the lack of encryption be a problem for you?) there are both better bands and cheap hw to serve such commercial traffic needs (and, in fact, regulations in many countries explicitly outlaw use of HAM bands for traffic that can be better carried by other services - including the FCC in the USA - so even if crypto was legal, it would still be illegal). And re amateur radio "dying" - that you don't hear anyone apart from a few old geezers chit chatting on a local repeater doesn't mean it is dying. There is a lot more to HAM radio than this - e.g. stuff like amateur radio satellites, APRS, all that SDR stuff, building digital networks, experiments with radar or even good old HF contesting. Or people simply enjoy building stuff and having the ticket lets them do it legally (some countries don't allow you to own HAM radio equipment without license). HAM radio is far from dying, just it may not be what you imagine as a HAM radio - a bearded guy in his 60s ragchewing on HF ... (I am a HAM operator myself)
mycall 8y ago
I prefer the other idea.. open up more frequencies to amateur radio with different restrictions. When I scan the frequencies, there is SO much that isn't being used.

wedowhatwedo 8y ago

Yes, if encryption was permitted, there would be a ton of interest...by commercial companies. Non-licensed users would out number licensed ones by huge amounts. It would put an end to amateur radio.

tlrobinson 8y ago
Requiring messages be signed by and for keys belonging to licensed amateurs might be sufficient to discourage abuse.
- janoc 8y ago
  And how would you distinguish licensed users from unlicensed ones if the messages are encrypted? Heck, the authorities have problems policing the bands even without having to deal with crypto.
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    Licensed amateurs would be required to register the public keys (not private keys, of course) they want to to sign messages on amateur bands.
- wedowhatwedo 8y ago
  That's what this project does. It does signing, just not encryption. I would argue that this is OK legally.
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    I understand. I’m suggesting we could allow actual encryption if the messages were also signed such that the sender and recipient (but not the content) were known. Abuse would require two licensed amateurs to cooperate to break the law and use the bands for commercial purposes. It would be easier to investigate suspected abuse (compared to unsigned encrypted messages, but not cleartext messages, of course)

brians 8y ago

There are more hams in the US, and more active hams, than ever before. That's a funny sort of dying! Joe Taylor's work on below-the-noise signal extraction has revitalized shortwave: https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx.html , particularly at the nadir of the sunspot cycle. That's a funny sort of dying! Amateur satellites are accessible for $100 in parts: https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 https://www.n2yo.com/satellites/?c=18 ; with the same parts and some practice and luck you can talk to the space station. That's cool for anyone but especially cool for students; NASA will do more amateur radio work in 2018 than in any previous year. That's a funny sort of dying! If encryption were permitted on amateur bands, I'd expect to see commercialization right quick—along the same lines as the PACTOR modems embraced by the long-duration recreational sailing community: https://www.cruisingworld.com/staying-connected-at-sea https://www.cruisingworld.com/staying-connected-at-sea

prolikewh0a 8y ago
I've actually seen my young amateur radio communities die off during this new solar minimum, and a lot of my friends sold their expensive equipment. You really need money and space right now unless you want to sit at your desk and do some of the new low SNR "can talk to the mars rover with a wet sock as an antenna" modes that a lot of people don't like because it's too easy and poses no challenge. There's also VHF/UHF, but that's mostly older clique's. It's definitely a slowly dying hobby.
- madengr 8y ago
  You should be able to talk to anyone in the USA with 100W and a wire antenna. I think the bigger issue is noise in urban areas. The FCC does a shit job of regulating noisy equipment. I had to go through my house and dispose of certain Ethernet switches, an audio device, notebook power supply, etc.
trothamel 8y ago
Is there a good description of what those $100 in parts for satellite work are? Or better yet, something purchasable that's likely to work? I've been wanting to get into it, but I've never found a really accessible guide to getting started in satellite communication.

janoc 8y ago

If encryption was allowed, all that would happen is that people would start to use HAM bands as a cheap way to wirelessly connect to the internet or to build private communication links. Totally negating their purpose. If you are after this (why would otherwise the lack of encryption be a problem for you?) there are both better bands and cheap hw to serve such commercial traffic needs (and, in fact, regulations in many countries explicitly outlaw use of HAM bands for traffic that can be better carried by other services - including the FCC in the USA - so even if crypto was legal, it would still be illegal). And re amateur radio "dying" - that you don't hear anyone apart from a few old geezers chit chatting on a local repeater doesn't mean it is dying. There is a lot more to HAM radio than this - e.g. stuff like amateur radio satellites, APRS, all that SDR stuff, building digital networks, experiments with radar or even good old HF contesting. Or people simply enjoy building stuff and having the ticket lets them do it legally (some countries don't allow you to own HAM radio equipment without license). HAM radio is far from dying, just it may not be what you imagine as a HAM radio - a bearded guy in his 60s ragchewing on HF ... (I am a HAM operator myself)

mycall 8y ago

I prefer the other idea.. open up more frequencies to amateur radio with different restrictions. When I scan the frequencies, there is SO much that isn't being used.