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> china is a totalitarian state. and soon, with google's help and the complicity of google employees, they will continue to do so with greater efficiency than b

> china is a totalitarian state. and soon, with google's help and the complicity of google employees, they will continue to do so with greater efficiency than before. mao imagined a country where the state was the not merely the highest power in the land, but the only power. they're getting there. This isn't Google's problem. They're just a company out to make some money for the shareholders. If the people of China want Democracy and freedom they need to fight for it. So far, the Chinese have not done that and do not seem to care that much about western-style freedom. It is entirely possible that not all cultures and societies desire the same thing.

SkyMarshal 8y ago
Some of the Chinese have done that - Tienamenn Square, Hong Kong democracy protests, and Taiwanese democracy come to mind. And yes it is Google’s problem to extent Google is not an amoral monolithic entity but a collection of human beings all over the world for whom human rights are directly impactful, and will be even more so as totalitarianism grows and spreads. At some point we have to stop hiding behind the belief that shareholder value maximization also inevitably results in human freedom. That’s a post-Coldwar conceit that was financially lucrative for a time for Western companies, but which the CCP is doing their best to disprove now.
- candiodari 8y ago
  Man, when you read stuff like this you start realizing: China's firewall DOES work bidirectionally. There are constant protests in China. > shareholder value maximization The biggest causes of abuses in China are the world doing nothing, not when China was brutally taking over Nepal, not when brutally annexing Hong Kong (which was brutal despite the dog and pony show put up for the Queen). Hell, we are mostly choosing China's side over (tiny) annexations in India and Pakistan. There were very little protests about the extreme abuses in Xinjang, the "criminal" organ donor scandals, the lead poisoning of (chinese and western) children just to use cheaper paint, ... So yes, you can protest company actions, but first and foremost governments, most of all the EU, but also the US, are to blame. And of course things like the UN ... they're ... they're a farce. The reality is that, imho, Google coming to China will make one hell of a lot of information available to Chinese citizens. I would expect this to have positive results, not negative. We also know what the outcome will most likely be of not doing anything in China. It seems to me A > B, do you disagree ? The attitude that doing nothing is superior to taking action is toxic and stupid. But yes, some very bad actions will have to be taken because that evil government demands it, and yes, some people here will need to do that. But the first point is: the Chinese firewall clearly needs piercing from the western side as well. Here's more recent, mostly large scale, Chinese incidents, lightly categorized: Labour abuse: https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/13/china-coal-protests-highlight-overcapacity-tensions.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/13/china-coal-protests-highligh... (there have been years of constant protests everywhere in the Chinese coal industry, for at least years since 2013 or so) https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/communist-chinas-crackdown-on-labor-protesters/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/communist-chinas-crackdown-o... Racist state attitudes/discrimination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... Pro-democracy and Hong Kong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/protests-hong-kong-high-speed-rail-link-china-180922092549498.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/protests-hong-kong-hi... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-40406429 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-40406429 (one thing about the Chinese state total control, they want to control everything, including of course language. And they do it with a very heavy hand) Generally protests against the state and party, with various focus points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinese_pro-democracy_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinese_pro-democracy_pro... http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-students-missing-after-riot-police-storm-apartment-to-stop-protest-2018-8?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-students-missing-after-r... https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-protest-over-cash-strapped-citys-school-plan-turns-violent-1535886485 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-protest-over-cash-strappe... https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/31/asia/vaccine-protest-scandal-china-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/31/asia/vaccine-protest-scan... https://money.cnn.com/video/news/2018/08/08/chinese-lending-companies-government-protests-p2p-matt-rivers.cnnmoney/index.html https://money.cnn.com/video/news/2018/08/08/chinese-lending-... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/protest-beatings-09062018124710.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/protest-beatings-0906...
j45 8y ago
Anything a company or person enables or tolerates, they support. Western-sytle freedom may be open to changing if something unpleasant is happening elsewhere, no?
cryoshon 8y ago
>This isn't Google's problem. They're just a company out to make some money for the shareholders. and money is more important than human rights? if it is, you'll need to say so explicitly rather than make an excuse for it. nobody is talking about forcing democracy or freedom on china. this is merely a matter of aggravating the harm their government can inflict on the chinese, or refraining from aggravating harm.

SkyMarshal 8y ago

Some of the Chinese have done that - Tienamenn Square, Hong Kong democracy protests, and Taiwanese democracy come to mind. And yes it is Google’s problem to extent Google is not an amoral monolithic entity but a collection of human beings all over the world for whom human rights are directly impactful, and will be even more so as totalitarianism grows and spreads. At some point we have to stop hiding behind the belief that shareholder value maximization also inevitably results in human freedom. That’s a post-Coldwar conceit that was financially lucrative for a time for Western companies, but which the CCP is doing their best to disprove now.

candiodari 8y ago
Man, when you read stuff like this you start realizing: China's firewall DOES work bidirectionally. There are constant protests in China. > shareholder value maximization The biggest causes of abuses in China are the world doing nothing, not when China was brutally taking over Nepal, not when brutally annexing Hong Kong (which was brutal despite the dog and pony show put up for the Queen). Hell, we are mostly choosing China's side over (tiny) annexations in India and Pakistan. There were very little protests about the extreme abuses in Xinjang, the "criminal" organ donor scandals, the lead poisoning of (chinese and western) children just to use cheaper paint, ... So yes, you can protest company actions, but first and foremost governments, most of all the EU, but also the US, are to blame. And of course things like the UN ... they're ... they're a farce. The reality is that, imho, Google coming to China will make one hell of a lot of information available to Chinese citizens. I would expect this to have positive results, not negative. We also know what the outcome will most likely be of not doing anything in China. It seems to me A > B, do you disagree ? The attitude that doing nothing is superior to taking action is toxic and stupid. But yes, some very bad actions will have to be taken because that evil government demands it, and yes, some people here will need to do that. But the first point is: the Chinese firewall clearly needs piercing from the western side as well. Here's more recent, mostly large scale, Chinese incidents, lightly categorized: Labour abuse: https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/13/china-coal-protests-highlight-overcapacity-tensions.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/13/china-coal-protests-highligh... (there have been years of constant protests everywhere in the Chinese coal industry, for at least years since 2013 or so) https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/communist-chinas-crackdown-on-labor-protesters/ https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/communist-chinas-crackdown-o... Racist state attitudes/discrimination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... Pro-democracy and Hong Kong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/protests-hong-kong-high-speed-rail-link-china-180922092549498.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/protests-hong-kong-hi... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-40406429 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-40406429 (one thing about the Chinese state total control, they want to control everything, including of course language. And they do it with a very heavy hand) Generally protests against the state and party, with various focus points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinese_pro-democracy_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Chinese_pro-democracy_pro... http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-students-missing-after-riot-police-storm-apartment-to-stop-protest-2018-8?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/china-students-missing-after-r... https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-protest-over-cash-strapped-citys-school-plan-turns-violent-1535886485 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-protest-over-cash-strappe... https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/31/asia/vaccine-protest-scandal-china-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/31/asia/vaccine-protest-scan... https://money.cnn.com/video/news/2018/08/08/chinese-lending-companies-government-protests-p2p-matt-rivers.cnnmoney/index.html https://money.cnn.com/video/news/2018/08/08/chinese-lending-... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/protest-beatings-09062018124710.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/protest-beatings-0906...

j45 8y ago

Anything a company or person enables or tolerates, they support. Western-sytle freedom may be open to changing if something unpleasant is happening elsewhere, no?

cryoshon 8y ago

>This isn't Google's problem. They're just a company out to make some money for the shareholders. and money is more important than human rights? if it is, you'll need to say so explicitly rather than make an excuse for it. nobody is talking about forcing democracy or freedom on china. this is merely a matter of aggravating the harm their government can inflict on the chinese, or refraining from aggravating harm.