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I'm an European, but I don't mind. First of all when making such a choice, you have to identify who the enemy is. If you're talking about global enemies, like

I'm an European, but I don't mind. First of all when making such a choice, you have to identify who the enemy is. If you're talking about global enemies, like the NSA, then IMO without end-to-end encryption you're screwed. And if you're targeted directly, you're screwed regardless, given they have the capability to use whatever vulnerabilities they can find in your router, your phone, your OS, your browser, etc. If it's connected to the Internet, especially if you're being targeted, you're screwed. Also many European countries have signed on joint cooperation agreements with US intelligence agencies. If for example you're using servers in the UK, it's in no way safer, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes So back to who is the enemy? For me it's not the NSA or our local intelligence agencies. If I'm being wronged, I've got legal ways to fight back and I don't really care about the NSA. What I care about is being _profiled_ by unscrupulous companies that may end up selling that data to other actors that may harm my well being. For example insurance companies could deny insurance if they discovered you smoked cigarettes 10 years ago. Or banks changing your credit score based on who your friends are. Or supermarket chains discovering that your daughter is pregnant before everybody else does. This shit is already happening! I think the general discourse doesn't go in the direction that it should go. Organizations like EFF have been historically anti-government, but very pro corporate and private companies. Which is why I don't trust them fully. Identify that enemy. If you're an European for example, that enemy is probably not the NSA. I do prefer non-US alternatives btw, whenever I get that choice. I do so out of a desire to encourage competition and to reward EU companies that do well, as a "voting with your wallet" thing. But choosing to reject non-US companies for the reason that some of their servers are located in the US, that's frankly childish. Servers located in the US are cost effective. Either provide better alternatives, or otherwise these services will not be able to compete on the global market from a price or latency perspective.

ataturk 8y ago
The enemy? That is an easy answer: The enemy is the public/private parternship! It's not just the NSA, not just corporations. No, it is the seamless melding of the two which are wreaking havoc on our civilization. Freedom of speech is on the chopping block right now today. Even HN has shadow-banned and otherwise taken part in censoring me and only because I express unpopular opinions about government and business. I get 1 post a day on this account. Why? What are they so afraid of?
mscasts 8y ago
Good user.
frockington 8y ago
What are the non-US alternatives you prefer? As a US citizen its always interesting to see what is popular an ocean away and check it out
ryukafalz 8y ago
>Organizations like EFF have been historically anti-government, but very pro corporate and private companies. I don't think I'd call EFF either anti-government or pro-corporate. Rather, they have a set of positions around surveillance, the public domain, etc. and side with or against governments or private companies based on those positions. I donate to them, and in my experience they've been pretty consistent on their positions, but if you've noticed otherwise I'd be curious to know how.
- aidenn0 8y ago
  They do see government surveillance as a greater threat than private surveillance, particularly if the private surveillance is disclosed. This makes sense as it is much harder to opt-out of your government than a contract with a private company.
  - patrec 8y ago
    I'd be surprised if it weren't easier for you personally to relocate to a different country than to opt out of any interaction with google.
- bad_user 8y ago
  I don't want to attack EFF, I think they are on the right side, but it's just a general feeling I've got. For example when the Facebook and Cambridge Analytica scandal broke loose, that was the perfect opportunity for them to go out against private surveillance, guns blazing. Their reaction was late and with an article like "here's how to protect against Facebook tracking", advising people to opt out in their Settings and to install Privacy Badger, this happening when everybody else was freaking out and doing #DeleteFacebook pieces. I donated to EFF modest amounts in the past and probably will do so again, because the fights they are fighting are good for us. Maybe they pick their battles, I don't know. But I'm seeing a general pattern in their attacks, which is that they go very light on companies, compared with how they deal with governments. Maybe it has to do, as always, with their source of funding. I can imagine that they received significant donations from the philanthropists of Silicon Valley. I don't care much though. My general point being that there's too much emphasis lately on government surveillance and control from privacy organizations and less on Google/Facebook surveillance. I'm glad that there's now mindfulness about it in this community though.
simfoo 8y ago
Thanks for you comment. I agree that the NSA is not _my_ enemy and I am probably not being targeted. However, as more people start thinking like that, those that _are_ targeted (journalists, lawyers, activists etc.) will have less options to hide among users of more privacy-aware service providers. In a way, by using these providers you shield those who need their services the most
- infogulch 8y ago
  This strikes me as a kind of herd-immunity argument but for privacy.
  - vezycash 8y ago
    People won't speak the truth or do the right thing if the environment makes it hard, or risky to do so. >I am probably not being targeted. However, as more people start thinking like that, those that _are_ targeted (journalists, lawyers, activists etc.) will have less options to hide among users of more privacy-aware service providers. If only child porn / drug peddlers, journalists, lawyers... use tor and other privacy tools at minimum, 3 things WILL happen. 1. Tor, fastmail, ipfs, pgp, full disk encryption... WILL become illegal 2. Anyone using encryption / privacy tools will be raided. Arrest first, find crime later 3. Authorities imprisoning lawyers, journalists... who reveal wrong doings will be too easy. "He used privacy tools" would be enough to pacify the public after-all, "Only criminals have something to hide." Consequently: We'll lose the right to keep pins/passwords. Because refusal - privacy = admission of guilt. I'm a teacher and I know how difficult it is for a kid to speak the truth when the entire class is lying. Adults are not much different. If people have to choose between their freedom, means of livelihood and doing the right thing, telling the truth or exposing wrong things by the government most wont. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Beall Sinclair, Jr.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bogomipz 8y ago
>"Organizations like EFF have been historically anti-government ..." Can you provide a citation or examples of this? Being pro-civil liberties does not imply anti-government. Those aren't mutually exclusive. In the US civil liberties are basic freedoms identified in the Bill or Rights and the Constitution. And the Constitution is what established the government in the first place. How is it possible to be pro-civil liberties and anti-government?
- bad_user 8y ago
  > Being pro-civil liberties does not imply anti-government. You're right, that's bad phrasing on my part. I explained what I meant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18058240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18058240
- drngdds 8y ago
  The Bill of Rights is a set of restrictions on what the government can do. Of course you can support it and be anti-government.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    The Bill Rights are amendments "to" the Constitution, the very document that establishes the legitimacy of the government in the first place. How can you accept the legitimacy of the government and be anti-government at the same time? Even the Anti-Federalists, the group that advocated for the establishment of a Bill of Rights were not anti-government.
    - gknoy 8y ago
      I take "anti-government" to mean that one is opposed to the actions that the government takes, in some situations, rather than being against the idea of the government. One can believe that a government is legitimate, while also believing that the government's power should be limited. One might argue that this idea is one of the core ideas of American government.
topbanana 8y ago
I would like to go on record to say that the NSA aren't my enemy either. Definitely not. Especially the analyst reading this - great suit!
Timmah 8y ago
I'm not your enemy. I don't even know you. So please send me your passwords to your online accounts. And I'd like to take a look at your home computer. So please install VNC and open your ports on the router so we don't waste too much time setting it up.
flyGuyOnTheSly 8y ago
>If I'm being wronged, I've got legal ways to fight back and I don't really care about the NSA. I believe a National Security Letter would prevent you from ever doing such a thing. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter#Contentious_aspects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter#Conte...

ataturk 8y ago

The enemy? That is an easy answer: The enemy is the public/private parternship! It's not just the NSA, not just corporations. No, it is the seamless melding of the two which are wreaking havoc on our civilization. Freedom of speech is on the chopping block right now today. Even HN has shadow-banned and otherwise taken part in censoring me and only because I express unpopular opinions about government and business. I get 1 post a day on this account. Why? What are they so afraid of?

mscasts 8y ago

Good user.

frockington 8y ago

What are the non-US alternatives you prefer? As a US citizen its always interesting to see what is popular an ocean away and check it out

ryukafalz 8y ago

>Organizations like EFF have been historically anti-government, but very pro corporate and private companies. I don't think I'd call EFF either anti-government or pro-corporate. Rather, they have a set of positions around surveillance, the public domain, etc. and side with or against governments or private companies based on those positions. I donate to them, and in my experience they've been pretty consistent on their positions, but if you've noticed otherwise I'd be curious to know how.

aidenn0 8y ago
They do see government surveillance as a greater threat than private surveillance, particularly if the private surveillance is disclosed. This makes sense as it is much harder to opt-out of your government than a contract with a private company.
- patrec 8y ago
  I'd be surprised if it weren't easier for you personally to relocate to a different country than to opt out of any interaction with google.
bad_user 8y ago
I don't want to attack EFF, I think they are on the right side, but it's just a general feeling I've got. For example when the Facebook and Cambridge Analytica scandal broke loose, that was the perfect opportunity for them to go out against private surveillance, guns blazing. Their reaction was late and with an article like "here's how to protect against Facebook tracking", advising people to opt out in their Settings and to install Privacy Badger, this happening when everybody else was freaking out and doing #DeleteFacebook pieces. I donated to EFF modest amounts in the past and probably will do so again, because the fights they are fighting are good for us. Maybe they pick their battles, I don't know. But I'm seeing a general pattern in their attacks, which is that they go very light on companies, compared with how they deal with governments. Maybe it has to do, as always, with their source of funding. I can imagine that they received significant donations from the philanthropists of Silicon Valley. I don't care much though. My general point being that there's too much emphasis lately on government surveillance and control from privacy organizations and less on Google/Facebook surveillance. I'm glad that there's now mindfulness about it in this community though.

simfoo 8y ago

Thanks for you comment. I agree that the NSA is not _my_ enemy and I am probably not being targeted. However, as more people start thinking like that, those that _are_ targeted (journalists, lawyers, activists etc.) will have less options to hide among users of more privacy-aware service providers. In a way, by using these providers you shield those who need their services the most

infogulch 8y ago
This strikes me as a kind of herd-immunity argument but for privacy.
- vezycash 8y ago
  People won't speak the truth or do the right thing if the environment makes it hard, or risky to do so. >I am probably not being targeted. However, as more people start thinking like that, those that _are_ targeted (journalists, lawyers, activists etc.) will have less options to hide among users of more privacy-aware service providers. If only child porn / drug peddlers, journalists, lawyers... use tor and other privacy tools at minimum, 3 things WILL happen. 1. Tor, fastmail, ipfs, pgp, full disk encryption... WILL become illegal 2. Anyone using encryption / privacy tools will be raided. Arrest first, find crime later 3. Authorities imprisoning lawyers, journalists... who reveal wrong doings will be too easy. "He used privacy tools" would be enough to pacify the public after-all, "Only criminals have something to hide." Consequently: We'll lose the right to keep pins/passwords. Because refusal - privacy = admission of guilt. I'm a teacher and I know how difficult it is for a kid to speak the truth when the entire class is lying. Adults are not much different. If people have to choose between their freedom, means of livelihood and doing the right thing, telling the truth or exposing wrong things by the government most wont. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Beall Sinclair, Jr.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

bogomipz 8y ago

>"Organizations like EFF have been historically anti-government ..." Can you provide a citation or examples of this? Being pro-civil liberties does not imply anti-government. Those aren't mutually exclusive. In the US civil liberties are basic freedoms identified in the Bill or Rights and the Constitution. And the Constitution is what established the government in the first place. How is it possible to be pro-civil liberties and anti-government?

bad_user 8y ago
> Being pro-civil liberties does not imply anti-government. You're right, that's bad phrasing on my part. I explained what I meant here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18058240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18058240
drngdds 8y ago
The Bill of Rights is a set of restrictions on what the government can do. Of course you can support it and be anti-government.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  The Bill Rights are amendments "to" the Constitution, the very document that establishes the legitimacy of the government in the first place. How can you accept the legitimacy of the government and be anti-government at the same time? Even the Anti-Federalists, the group that advocated for the establishment of a Bill of Rights were not anti-government.
  - gknoy 8y ago
    I take "anti-government" to mean that one is opposed to the actions that the government takes, in some situations, rather than being against the idea of the government. One can believe that a government is legitimate, while also believing that the government's power should be limited. One might argue that this idea is one of the core ideas of American government.

topbanana 8y ago

I would like to go on record to say that the NSA aren't my enemy either. Definitely not. Especially the analyst reading this - great suit!

Timmah 8y ago

I'm not your enemy. I don't even know you. So please send me your passwords to your online accounts. And I'd like to take a look at your home computer. So please install VNC and open your ports on the router so we don't waste too much time setting it up.

flyGuyOnTheSly 8y ago

>If I'm being wronged, I've got legal ways to fight back and I don't really care about the NSA. I believe a National Security Letter would prevent you from ever doing such a thing. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter#Contentious_aspects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter#Conte...