5 ms·

> You cannot expect people from Finland, Spain, Turkey, Namibia, or Japan to behave the same way, talk the same way, express themselves the same way. You cannot

> You cannot expect people from Finland, Spain, Turkey, Namibia, or Japan to behave the same way, talk the same way, express themselves the same way. You cannot expect them to just normalize to a cookie-cutter template and move on. That does not work. And yet, that's the expectation, because that's how the US-centric IT world is designed. This. Right here. The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World. This is not 1984 with a standardized society defined by the Big Brother in Menlo Park. You will find that most of these "cultural/offensive" flame wars in tech are fought because someone forgot to step out of the silicon valley bubble they reside in. Take what happened with Redis. The Master/Slave terminology does not raise much eyebrows outside of USA simply because these parts of the world did not have large scale slavery of black people. And yet some SV people expect to everyone to know American history and culture. They seem to live in a dream world where only the American culture exists and then get violent when the reality hits them. And before someone comes with a respect and work with my culture shtick, please remember that it is a two way street. We are not under any obligation to respect only your culture and mannerisms. You also have a responsibility to understand other cultures and respect them and understand their mannerisms and way of thinking.

notacoward 8y ago
> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how they express disagreement or criticism (i.e. in a way that can be interpreted either as more gentle or more passive-aggressive depending on context). You raise a good point, but I think the differences are even greater than you (or the OP) think. Of course, talking about this on extremely SV-centric Hacker News might not achieve very much.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  Yea, if you've been in the SV bubble for too long you might not even perceive it! One of the biggest cultural things I struggled to get used to when I moved out to the Bay Area for work (originally from the northeast too), was the extent to which I needed to constantly self-censor and water down my wording to the point of meaninglessness, simply to avoid offending someone or coming across as too harsh. People out here have such thin skin, and you're always walking on eggshells when you need to disagree with something. It's a kind of newspeak, where it colors every interaction with people and makes it impossible to deliver certain messages effectively, without sugar-coating or couching with "probablys" and "maybes". When you take this culture and these rules and assume the entire world plays by them, you're likely to end up looking totally out of touch. EDIT: Self-censored a little. :-)
  - notacoward 8y ago
    Here's a question I often like to ask myself about people I interact with: > What is this person's equivalent of "F you"? For a typical east-coaster or northern European it's likely to be exactly as in the question. ;) For some people, "I'm not sure I 100% agree" is about as close as you'll ever get. The left-coast average seems to be much closer to the second option. I'm not saying it's a bad thing - in fact I find it quite pleasant - but it can trip you up until you get used to it. At my last job, it took me years to figure out how to interpret my Indian colleagues' responses correctly (if indeed I ever did). This kind of calibration is an under-appreciated skill.
  - kjeetgill 8y ago
    I've never had too bad a time getting away with f-bombs though I have weaned myself off using the n-word for camaraderie (opting for homies). I've found it all depends on reading the room. If people know you and what you're about, they'll take it for what it is. That said I couch my words with "maybes and probablies" all the time by habit. I suppose it just feels more precise? I save hard assertions for when I mean them. Disclaimer: Bay native.
  - BrandoElFollito 8y ago
    These role would be sent for file training to the Netherlands. This is one of the most direct culture, you get a raw opinion. This is a good thing, eventually, after an adaptation period where you think that missed the memo on being nice.
- dang 8y ago
  > extremely SV-centric Hacker News HN users are about 10% from SV (5-14%, depending on what exactly you count). And about 50% from the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521
  - CryptoRetired 8y ago
    But the cargo cult monoculture you nazis enforce with your abuse and repeated threats of violence are very SJW SV leftist. Translation: Anything that disagrees with dangs homophobic, neonazi politics is not tolerated on HN. Unless you agree with him, your opinions are ideological rants. If you do agree with him, of course, abuse, name calling, stalking, harassments, threats of violence, violations of the law and hate speech are ok... as dang himself engages in and provides cover for regularly on this site. Anyone who dares point out this hypocrisy or dares to think for themselves, for that matter, will be censored immediately. Because like all nazis, dang is an intellectual coward who cannot defend his positions, will not recognize his own hypocrisy and abuse, and thinks that silencing people so that the "HN record" only shows one side makes reality. Reality is you're an abusive, lying asshole, and hypocrite. You don't care for diversity, you seek to create a monoculture of group think. And anyone worth a damn has left his site or been driven off.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    I think the SV influence is probably much stronger than those numbers show. For one thing, what are the numbers like when adjusted for posting frequency? Five users who each post once a month don't balance out even one of the people who post a dozen comments a day. Also, people who have very strong connections with SV companies as employers, investors, or even customers are likely to adopt some of those attitudes even if they live elsewhere (like me). I'm pretty sure a real sentiment analysis would show a different result than a mere user survey.
    - dang 8y ago
      The numbers vary depending on what we measure but they just don't vary that much. For example, when you look at total submissions and comments, the SV portion goes up to 10.9%. The highest SV number I've seen is actually for total page views (14.4%), which may suggest that SV users are reading more than posting, relative to other demographics. When I read your comment I can't help but hear it as taking a step away from the numbers and back into preconceptions (i.e. real numbers would show what you already know). One thing I've noticed from years of doing this is that people's preconceptions about HN are amazingly strong and often not open to change. Sorry—I know that sounds condescending; in case it helps, I don't think I'm any different.

notacoward 8y ago

> The fanatics in the OSS world (and Tech at large) seem to have forgotten that Silicon Valley != The World When it comes to attitudes and languages, Silicon Valley is sometimes quite different than tech in the rest of the US. As a developer in the northeastern US, one of the adjustments I've had to make in working for an archetypal Silicon Valley company is to the way people express themselves and particularly how they express disagreement or criticism (i.e. in a way that can be interpreted either as more gentle or more passive-aggressive depending on context). You raise a good point, but I think the differences are even greater than you (or the OP) think. Of course, talking about this on extremely SV-centric Hacker News might not achieve very much.

ryandrake 8y ago
Yea, if you've been in the SV bubble for too long you might not even perceive it! One of the biggest cultural things I struggled to get used to when I moved out to the Bay Area for work (originally from the northeast too), was the extent to which I needed to constantly self-censor and water down my wording to the point of meaninglessness, simply to avoid offending someone or coming across as too harsh. People out here have such thin skin, and you're always walking on eggshells when you need to disagree with something. It's a kind of newspeak, where it colors every interaction with people and makes it impossible to deliver certain messages effectively, without sugar-coating or couching with "probablys" and "maybes". When you take this culture and these rules and assume the entire world plays by them, you're likely to end up looking totally out of touch. EDIT: Self-censored a little. :-)
- notacoward 8y ago
  Here's a question I often like to ask myself about people I interact with: > What is this person's equivalent of "F you"? For a typical east-coaster or northern European it's likely to be exactly as in the question. ;) For some people, "I'm not sure I 100% agree" is about as close as you'll ever get. The left-coast average seems to be much closer to the second option. I'm not saying it's a bad thing - in fact I find it quite pleasant - but it can trip you up until you get used to it. At my last job, it took me years to figure out how to interpret my Indian colleagues' responses correctly (if indeed I ever did). This kind of calibration is an under-appreciated skill.
- kjeetgill 8y ago
  I've never had too bad a time getting away with f-bombs though I have weaned myself off using the n-word for camaraderie (opting for homies). I've found it all depends on reading the room. If people know you and what you're about, they'll take it for what it is. That said I couch my words with "maybes and probablies" all the time by habit. I suppose it just feels more precise? I save hard assertions for when I mean them. Disclaimer: Bay native.
- BrandoElFollito 8y ago
  These role would be sent for file training to the Netherlands. This is one of the most direct culture, you get a raw opinion. This is a good thing, eventually, after an adaptation period where you think that missed the memo on being nice.
dang 8y ago
> extremely SV-centric Hacker News HN users are about 10% from SV (5-14%, depending on what exactly you count). And about 50% from the US. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16633521
- CryptoRetired 8y ago
  But the cargo cult monoculture you nazis enforce with your abuse and repeated threats of violence are very SJW SV leftist. Translation: Anything that disagrees with dangs homophobic, neonazi politics is not tolerated on HN. Unless you agree with him, your opinions are ideological rants. If you do agree with him, of course, abuse, name calling, stalking, harassments, threats of violence, violations of the law and hate speech are ok... as dang himself engages in and provides cover for regularly on this site. Anyone who dares point out this hypocrisy or dares to think for themselves, for that matter, will be censored immediately. Because like all nazis, dang is an intellectual coward who cannot defend his positions, will not recognize his own hypocrisy and abuse, and thinks that silencing people so that the "HN record" only shows one side makes reality. Reality is you're an abusive, lying asshole, and hypocrite. You don't care for diversity, you seek to create a monoculture of group think. And anyone worth a damn has left his site or been driven off.
- notacoward 8y ago
  I think the SV influence is probably much stronger than those numbers show. For one thing, what are the numbers like when adjusted for posting frequency? Five users who each post once a month don't balance out even one of the people who post a dozen comments a day. Also, people who have very strong connections with SV companies as employers, investors, or even customers are likely to adopt some of those attitudes even if they live elsewhere (like me). I'm pretty sure a real sentiment analysis would show a different result than a mere user survey.
  - dang 8y ago
    The numbers vary depending on what we measure but they just don't vary that much. For example, when you look at total submissions and comments, the SV portion goes up to 10.9%. The highest SV number I've seen is actually for total page views (14.4%), which may suggest that SV users are reading more than posting, relative to other demographics. When I read your comment I can't help but hear it as taking a step away from the numbers and back into preconceptions (i.e. real numbers would show what you already know). One thing I've noticed from years of doing this is that people's preconceptions about HN are amazingly strong and often not open to change. Sorry—I know that sounds condescending; in case it helps, I don't think I'm any different.