5 ms·

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think t

by vesak 8y ago

Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is, and they have a strong CoC. They seem to be doing fine. I don't think this is going to kill Linux. As for Linus's vacation/break/whatever, it's good that they're practicing giving the reins away. It is bound to happen at some future anyway. It's equally good that they're practicing behaving well, because it's quite possible that the next project lead will not have the history and personality to make bad communication work -- and that could destroy Linux.

aikah 8y ago
> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to eliminate diversity of ideas and impose an "intersectional" mindset on all contributors, under threat of exclusion. Larry did not harass anybody in the Drupal community yet was kicked out of any official Drupal related conferences and cannot contribute to the project anymore, just because he shared a fetish with his wife someone did not approve of.
- vesak 8y ago
  >CoC are political tools to eliminate diversity of ideas How so?
- pjc50 8y ago
  If you read the official Drupal statement it comes across very differently: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-and-project-lead-statement-regarding-larry-garfield https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-a... There was a dispute which was being handled privately, and in consultation with Larry, but he decided to attack the project in public over it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - CryptoRetired 8y ago
    The spin and misrepresentation in that article is a perfect example- take a consensual action of an adult and pretend like they were being coerced, in order to smear a guy who has not committed a crime. This is exactly how it’s done every single time. Vague accusations or outright lies are used to characterize someone and demand they be removed or punished. The reality is they don’t like his sexual choices. It’s literally the same as if Christians went after a gay man like me and claimed I should be removed because I’m a criminal committing sodomy (in my own home they assume) which is illegal in many states.
    - vesak 8y ago
      >It’s literally the same as if Christians went after a gay man like me and claimed I should be removed because I’m a criminal committing sodomy (in my own home they assume) which is illegal in many states. Perhaps I understood this wrong... are you saying that discriminating against somebody because they're gay is exactly the same as discriminating against somebody because they sexually harassed someone?
- alkonaut 8y ago
  > said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. This is always a difficult line to draw. If you find out someone is a nazi (and thus would like to see you dead or preferably never born) it's hard to just look past that fact and colllaborate constructively just because the behavior was "unrelated to the project". The simple rule would be- would you be fired on the spot from your workplace if these comments were discovered? Then it's not so strange you might face issues in a collaborative project either. > eliminate diversity of ideas I think that's reading a bit much into the CoC to be honest.
  - xeeeeeeeeeeenu 8y ago
    >This is always a difficult line to draw. It's not difficult at all. What contributors are doing privately has nothing to do with the project.
    - alkonaut 8y ago
      As I was trying to explain - behavior in the project is certainly more important, but outside behavior can’t be entirely ignored. Just like in a workplace.
      - echaozh 8y ago
        Why is the project like a workplace? Do the contributors all get paid? Do they all, or do most of them consider it as a workplace? What makes you think it's proper to treat the project like a workplace, and downplay those think otherwise?
        alkonaut 8y ago
        Because it’s a collaborative environment with humans. Like a workplace. Why would pay be relevant to expected behavior? Is someone really going to say e.g that it’s within their right to be racist because they aren’t getting paid not to?
  - Liskni_si 8y ago
- pseudalopex 8y ago
  There's a lot not to like about the Drupal situation, but the powers that be didn't remove Garfield "just because he shared a fetish with his wife". The Gorean subculture seems to be controversial even in BDSM circles. Some of what was used against him was dredged up from semi-private pages, but some of it was public. He seemed to argue against interpreting it as just role-play. When he was told to stop using Gorean mannerisms at Drupal events, he argued it discriminated against his culture. Also, how is the Code of Conduct to blame? The official position seems to be that he didn't violate it.
poilcn 8y ago
I like Rust and all, but its hype obscures any real result. You see posts everywhere telling that the language is great and here are some features of it, but it's not as widely used as talked about. And also it's not like there is noticeable "diversity" Rust supposed to encourage among people who make things with it.
- vesak 8y ago
  By "doing fine", I refer to them having real, measurable progress on every single release (which happens every 6 weeks like clockwork) since 1.0 and probably before too, plus the ecosystem growing.
CryptoRetired 8y ago
No, it’s not inclusive at all. It is very leftist, however. Thryvtalk avkit diversity, but they can’t abide people actually being different (speaking about Rust specifically here.) If day of all the language projects it’s the least inclusive.
daxorid 8y ago
> Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is Right. Let's see Klabnik accept a PR from Curtis Yarvin. The "inclusiveness" of Rust, and projects like it, only applies if you hold the correct opinions. The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow.
- steveklabnik 8y ago
  We do not police people’s political views outside of Rust, and we have a number of people from all over the political spectrum doing work. Including people farther right than Republicans. Politics discussion is off-topic, and so it’s geneally a non-issue. I don’t discuss my political beliefs, and neither does anyone else.
- vesak 8y ago
  > The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow. That is, of course, a complete lie.

by vesak 8y ago

aikah 8y ago

> is one of the most inclusive projects there is There is absolutely no proof a CoC drives "inclusiveness", whatever it means, however there are multiple examples where codes of conducts were used to exclude contributors because they said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/drupal-larry-garfield-gor.htm... CoC are political tools to eliminate diversity of ideas and impose an "intersectional" mindset on all contributors, under threat of exclusion. Larry did not harass anybody in the Drupal community yet was kicked out of any official Drupal related conferences and cannot contribute to the project anymore, just because he shared a fetish with his wife someone did not approve of.

vesak 8y ago
>CoC are political tools to eliminate diversity of ideas How so?
pjc50 8y ago
If you read the official Drupal statement it comes across very differently: https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-and-project-lead-statement-regarding-larry-garfield https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/drupal-association-a... There was a dispute which was being handled privately, and in consultation with Larry, but he decided to attack the project in public over it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- CryptoRetired 8y ago
  The spin and misrepresentation in that article is a perfect example- take a consensual action of an adult and pretend like they were being coerced, in order to smear a guy who has not committed a crime. This is exactly how it’s done every single time. Vague accusations or outright lies are used to characterize someone and demand they be removed or punished. The reality is they don’t like his sexual choices. It’s literally the same as if Christians went after a gay man like me and claimed I should be removed because I’m a criminal committing sodomy (in my own home they assume) which is illegal in many states.
  - vesak 8y ago
    >It’s literally the same as if Christians went after a gay man like me and claimed I should be removed because I’m a criminal committing sodomy (in my own home they assume) which is illegal in many states. Perhaps I understood this wrong... are you saying that discriminating against somebody because they're gay is exactly the same as discriminating against somebody because they sexually harassed someone?
alkonaut 8y ago
> said something someone did not like in a setting completely unrelated to the project community. This is always a difficult line to draw. If you find out someone is a nazi (and thus would like to see you dead or preferably never born) it's hard to just look past that fact and colllaborate constructively just because the behavior was "unrelated to the project". The simple rule would be- would you be fired on the spot from your workplace if these comments were discovered? Then it's not so strange you might face issues in a collaborative project either. > eliminate diversity of ideas I think that's reading a bit much into the CoC to be honest.
- xeeeeeeeeeeenu 8y ago
  >This is always a difficult line to draw. It's not difficult at all. What contributors are doing privately has nothing to do with the project.
  - alkonaut 8y ago
    As I was trying to explain - behavior in the project is certainly more important, but outside behavior can’t be entirely ignored. Just like in a workplace.
    - echaozh 8y ago
      Why is the project like a workplace? Do the contributors all get paid? Do they all, or do most of them consider it as a workplace? What makes you think it's proper to treat the project like a workplace, and downplay those think otherwise?
      - alkonaut 8y ago
        Because it’s a collaborative environment with humans. Like a workplace. Why would pay be relevant to expected behavior? Is someone really going to say e.g that it’s within their right to be racist because they aren’t getting paid not to?
- Liskni_si 8y ago
pseudalopex 8y ago
There's a lot not to like about the Drupal situation, but the powers that be didn't remove Garfield "just because he shared a fetish with his wife". The Gorean subculture seems to be controversial even in BDSM circles. Some of what was used against him was dredged up from semi-private pages, but some of it was public. He seemed to argue against interpreting it as just role-play. When he was told to stop using Gorean mannerisms at Drupal events, he argued it discriminated against his culture. Also, how is the Code of Conduct to blame? The official position seems to be that he didn't violate it.

poilcn 8y ago

I like Rust and all, but its hype obscures any real result. You see posts everywhere telling that the language is great and here are some features of it, but it's not as widely used as talked about. And also it's not like there is noticeable "diversity" Rust supposed to encourage among people who make things with it.

vesak 8y ago
By "doing fine", I refer to them having real, measurable progress on every single release (which happens every 6 weeks like clockwork) since 1.0 and probably before too, plus the ecosystem growing.

CryptoRetired 8y ago

No, it’s not inclusive at all. It is very leftist, however. Thryvtalk avkit diversity, but they can’t abide people actually being different (speaking about Rust specifically here.) If day of all the language projects it’s the least inclusive.

daxorid 8y ago

> Rust, the programming language project, is one of the most inclusive projects there is Right. Let's see Klabnik accept a PR from Curtis Yarvin. The "inclusiveness" of Rust, and projects like it, only applies if you hold the correct opinions. The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow.

steveklabnik 8y ago
We do not police people’s political views outside of Rust, and we have a number of people from all over the political spectrum doing work. Including people farther right than Republicans. Politics discussion is off-topic, and so it’s geneally a non-issue. I don’t discuss my political beliefs, and neither does anyone else.
vesak 8y ago
> The definition of "inclusive" as viewed by most of these CoCs is extremely narrow. That is, of course, a complete lie.