6 ms·

Innovation in Violinmaking (1998)

62 points by jonnybgood 8y ago

jackhack 8y ago
A more recent article (2006) by the same author discuss his progress in developing an "ultralight" violin: https://josephcurtinstudios.com/subject-to-change-innovation-among-violinmakers/ https://josephcurtinstudios.com/subject-to-change-innovation... Curiously this new design remains under development today, with completion listed as "fall 2018". As an amateur luthier, I'm thrilled to see a push for innovation in the viol family of instruments. It's an uphill battle -- any deviation from Cremona design is seen as heresy and is immediately rejected. Even benign cosmetic elements are dismissed out-of-hand. Thankfully this orthodoxy does not exist in the folk instrument world, where innovation flourishes. The author's comment about being a civil war re-enactment actor perfectly captures what it feels like to be trapped by orthodoxy.
supernova87a 8y ago
Wow, I was interested, but just couldn't get through the whole article without a single figure or diagram to illustrate his points about what he would change. Perhaps I'll give it a try reading this much prose again when I have the time.
- CarVac 8y ago
  Yeah, it assumes a good deal of prior knowledge about violins.
  - supernova87a 8y ago
    Oh, I play the violin. And even I was finding it hard to want to continue reading a wall of text without a single diagram or figure...
mrob 8y ago
The most obvious innovation would be replacing the friction peg tuners with guitar-style machine heads. This wouldn't perceptibly change the sound, but it would make the violin easier to keep in tune. But violinists care more about tradition, so this obvious improvement isn't done.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  The German carbon violin maker mezzo-forte - by the way, that's one hell of an innovation - uses Wittner fine tuning pegs: > The Wittner Fine Tune pegs retain the traditional hardwood appearance demanded by professional musicians while offering a unique internal gearing system that makes them a revelation to use. I'm thinking about buying some of those pegs myself. I saw them for 80 Euros for a violin. They come in two sizes, 7.8 mm and 8.6 mm. When I read violin forums it's often about name dropping. Who made the instrument? How ancient is it? When I bought my first violin I told them my upper limit and to give me instruments without telling me anything at all about them. I tried about 8 different ones for two hours and ended up spending 1000 Euros (just the pure instrument without anything else, well, strings of course, Thomastik Dominant). I never looked at any of them closely, not even the one I ended up buying. Only when I was back home did I really have a look at what I bought. Until then I only cared about how it felt and how it sounded. I considered a Mezzo-Forte (carbon) but thought I'm not advanced enough to be able to make good decision (yet), besides, it would have cost 2400 Euros, quite a bit more. What I read about that carbon instrument was pretty positive - pretty much all negative comments were almost all along the line "it's not traditional", often without even having ever tried one. https://www.mezzo-forte.de/en/ https://www.mezzo-forte.de/en/ https://www.simplyforstrings.com.au/blog/wittner-finetune-pegs-make-their-mark/ https://www.simplyforstrings.com.au/blog/wittner-finetune-pe... https://www.thomann.de/gb/wittner_violin_tuning_pegs_4_4_78.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D https://www.thomann.de/gb/wittner_violin_tuning_pegs_4_4_78.... (linking only the 7.8 mm version)
  - mathw 8y ago
    I want some of those pegs! The dance between the fine tuners and the pegs is frustrating, and I don't like the look of a tailpiece with four little screws sticking out of it. I'd love some for my viol even more, as it's got seven strings all made of gut and goes out of tune with the slightest shift in humidity or temperature. Anybody who doubts the progress of violin making just needs to play the viol for a while, as viol design is still mostly just recreations of the old instruments. Or play baroque violin - violin as Stradivarius actually made it - and understand that progress has been made. I think the adherence to worship of the past is a relatively modern thing, but it's nice to see things moving around. I've seen quite a few very interesting instruments on the English folk scene lately by Tim Phillips.
willyt 8y ago
This is maybe a stupid question, but why don’t violins have markings to indicate the notes. Obviously you wouldn’t have physical frets like a guitar because that would alter the sound, but one of the reasons beginners sound so awful is because it takes years before they can reliably play in tune. Is there a reason why?
- davemp 8y ago
  Most beginners have stickers placed on their finger boards to indicate the notes.
- tellnes 8y ago
  IIRC I actually used some tape when I was starting to learn the violin. But it does not make sense after that. The different tones are a lot closer to getter than on the gitar, so you can only mark some of them. Then you are back to the start since you still have to use other means to know where to put your fingers.
- stan_rogers 8y ago
  Part of it is because there are different concepts of "in tune" - are you working in natural tuning or equal-tempered? (That is, is a C-sharp the same note as a D-flat or a slightly different note?)
- seanhunter 8y ago
  Not a violinist but I used to be a professional double bass player and the issues are somewhat similar (actually worse on violin than double bass because the gauge is shorter and therefore the margin for error is less). Beginners do sometimes stick stickers on the fretboard, however these are generally not encouraged. Firstly if you're looking at the fingerboard while playing a violin your neck would be in a really bad position, so it would encourage a bad habit. To learn to play in tune, you train your ear (so you know what in tune is) and your proprioception (so you know where your body needs to be in space to make the instrument be in tune). Secondly, the difference in area between the note being beautifully in tune and sounding awful is really small, so in order for a sticker or visual cue to help your head and the instrument would have to be in exact alignment at all times and even then you may not be able to see. This is made much worse by parallax. When playing the violin even if you are looking at the strings, you are looking down the fingerboard towards the nut rather than across the fingerboard like in the case of a guitar, remember. Thirdly, if you're looking at your fingers you're not looking at your music (which you need to when you're a beginner) or your conductor or fellow players (as you need to when you're actually performing).
jefftk 8y ago
The author is mostly be optimizing for volume, and in a fully acoustic context I see why that's a goal. But there's an enormous amount of vioin performance that is either recorded or amplified, in which case volume doesn't matter much. I'd love to see someone optimize for tone quality and responsiveness at the expense of volume.
- jackhack 8y ago
  From the article, about 4% of the energy from the bow is ejected as sound but even that seemingly low figure may be near the top of what is possible, mechanically speaking. Even with amplification, there is always a desire for more potential volume since that gives the musician a wider (potential) dynamic range. And an instrument that is more sensitive is often more capable of the greatest volume. I think it's fair to say that the tone/volume struggle is a balance. No-one wants a harsh-yet-loud instrument. And a beautifully resonant, lush instrument that can't rise above the 2nd and 3rd chair instruments will be resigned to solo work, only. there's a saying in the luthier world : "you can give 'em volume or you can give 'em tone, and they'll pick volume every time."
  - jefftk 8y ago
    > And a beautifully resonant, lush instrument that can't rise above the 2nd and 3rd chair instruments will be resigned to solo work, only. There are a lot of recording and amplified gigs, though, where relative volume doesn't matter much. For example, I play for dances with fiddlers, and the fiddle is always amplified. A more responsive fiddle, one that let you keep excellent tone while playing faster, or one with just better tone all around would would easily be worth accepting lower unamplified volume from.

62 points by jonnybgood 8y ago

A more recent article (2006) by the same author discuss his progress in developing an "ultralight" violin: https://josephcurtinstudios.com/subject-to-change-innovation-among-violinmakers/ https://josephcurtinstudios.com/subject-to-change-innovation... Curiously this new design remains under development today, with completion listed as "fall 2018". As an amateur luthier, I'm thrilled to see a push for innovation in the viol family of instruments. It's an uphill battle -- any deviation from Cremona design is seen as heresy and is immediately rejected. Even benign cosmetic elements are dismissed out-of-hand. Thankfully this orthodoxy does not exist in the folk instrument world, where innovation flourishes. The author's comment about being a civil war re-enactment actor perfectly captures what it feels like to be trapped by orthodoxy.

supernova87a 8y ago

Wow, I was interested, but just couldn't get through the whole article without a single figure or diagram to illustrate his points about what he would change. Perhaps I'll give it a try reading this much prose again when I have the time.

CarVac 8y ago
Yeah, it assumes a good deal of prior knowledge about violins.
- supernova87a 8y ago
  Oh, I play the violin. And even I was finding it hard to want to continue reading a wall of text without a single diagram or figure...

mrob 8y ago

The most obvious innovation would be replacing the friction peg tuners with guitar-style machine heads. This wouldn't perceptibly change the sound, but it would make the violin easier to keep in tune. But violinists care more about tradition, so this obvious improvement isn't done.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
The German carbon violin maker mezzo-forte - by the way, that's one hell of an innovation - uses Wittner fine tuning pegs: > The Wittner Fine Tune pegs retain the traditional hardwood appearance demanded by professional musicians while offering a unique internal gearing system that makes them a revelation to use. I'm thinking about buying some of those pegs myself. I saw them for 80 Euros for a violin. They come in two sizes, 7.8 mm and 8.6 mm. When I read violin forums it's often about name dropping. Who made the instrument? How ancient is it? When I bought my first violin I told them my upper limit and to give me instruments without telling me anything at all about them. I tried about 8 different ones for two hours and ended up spending 1000 Euros (just the pure instrument without anything else, well, strings of course, Thomastik Dominant). I never looked at any of them closely, not even the one I ended up buying. Only when I was back home did I really have a look at what I bought. Until then I only cared about how it felt and how it sounded. I considered a Mezzo-Forte (carbon) but thought I'm not advanced enough to be able to make good decision (yet), besides, it would have cost 2400 Euros, quite a bit more. What I read about that carbon instrument was pretty positive - pretty much all negative comments were almost all along the line "it's not traditional", often without even having ever tried one. https://www.mezzo-forte.de/en/ https://www.mezzo-forte.de/en/ https://www.simplyforstrings.com.au/blog/wittner-finetune-pegs-make-their-mark/ https://www.simplyforstrings.com.au/blog/wittner-finetune-pe... https://www.thomann.de/gb/wittner_violin_tuning_pegs_4_4_78.htm?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D https://www.thomann.de/gb/wittner_violin_tuning_pegs_4_4_78.... (linking only the 7.8 mm version)
- mathw 8y ago
  I want some of those pegs! The dance between the fine tuners and the pegs is frustrating, and I don't like the look of a tailpiece with four little screws sticking out of it. I'd love some for my viol even more, as it's got seven strings all made of gut and goes out of tune with the slightest shift in humidity or temperature. Anybody who doubts the progress of violin making just needs to play the viol for a while, as viol design is still mostly just recreations of the old instruments. Or play baroque violin - violin as Stradivarius actually made it - and understand that progress has been made. I think the adherence to worship of the past is a relatively modern thing, but it's nice to see things moving around. I've seen quite a few very interesting instruments on the English folk scene lately by Tim Phillips.

willyt 8y ago

This is maybe a stupid question, but why don’t violins have markings to indicate the notes. Obviously you wouldn’t have physical frets like a guitar because that would alter the sound, but one of the reasons beginners sound so awful is because it takes years before they can reliably play in tune. Is there a reason why?

davemp 8y ago
Most beginners have stickers placed on their finger boards to indicate the notes.
tellnes 8y ago
IIRC I actually used some tape when I was starting to learn the violin. But it does not make sense after that. The different tones are a lot closer to getter than on the gitar, so you can only mark some of them. Then you are back to the start since you still have to use other means to know where to put your fingers.
stan_rogers 8y ago
Part of it is because there are different concepts of "in tune" - are you working in natural tuning or equal-tempered? (That is, is a C-sharp the same note as a D-flat or a slightly different note?)
seanhunter 8y ago
Not a violinist but I used to be a professional double bass player and the issues are somewhat similar (actually worse on violin than double bass because the gauge is shorter and therefore the margin for error is less). Beginners do sometimes stick stickers on the fretboard, however these are generally not encouraged. Firstly if you're looking at the fingerboard while playing a violin your neck would be in a really bad position, so it would encourage a bad habit. To learn to play in tune, you train your ear (so you know what in tune is) and your proprioception (so you know where your body needs to be in space to make the instrument be in tune). Secondly, the difference in area between the note being beautifully in tune and sounding awful is really small, so in order for a sticker or visual cue to help your head and the instrument would have to be in exact alignment at all times and even then you may not be able to see. This is made much worse by parallax. When playing the violin even if you are looking at the strings, you are looking down the fingerboard towards the nut rather than across the fingerboard like in the case of a guitar, remember. Thirdly, if you're looking at your fingers you're not looking at your music (which you need to when you're a beginner) or your conductor or fellow players (as you need to when you're actually performing).

jefftk 8y ago

The author is mostly be optimizing for volume, and in a fully acoustic context I see why that's a goal. But there's an enormous amount of vioin performance that is either recorded or amplified, in which case volume doesn't matter much. I'd love to see someone optimize for tone quality and responsiveness at the expense of volume.

jackhack 8y ago
From the article, about 4% of the energy from the bow is ejected as sound but even that seemingly low figure may be near the top of what is possible, mechanically speaking. Even with amplification, there is always a desire for more potential volume since that gives the musician a wider (potential) dynamic range. And an instrument that is more sensitive is often more capable of the greatest volume. I think it's fair to say that the tone/volume struggle is a balance. No-one wants a harsh-yet-loud instrument. And a beautifully resonant, lush instrument that can't rise above the 2nd and 3rd chair instruments will be resigned to solo work, only. there's a saying in the luthier world : "you can give 'em volume or you can give 'em tone, and they'll pick volume every time."
- jefftk 8y ago
  > And a beautifully resonant, lush instrument that can't rise above the 2nd and 3rd chair instruments will be resigned to solo work, only. There are a lot of recording and amplified gigs, though, where relative volume doesn't matter much. For example, I play for dances with fiddlers, and the fiddle is always amplified. A more responsive fiddle, one that let you keep excellent tone while playing faster, or one with just better tone all around would would easily be worth accepting lower unamplified volume from.