4 ms·

Nobody else mentioned pedophilia. There are other forms of abuse that aren't sexual.

by LocalH 8y ago

lifeisstillgood 8y ago
whatever else is going on in the mind of a paedophile / other abuser, it is not love.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kbenson 8y ago
  I'm sure we would all sleep much better at night assuming that's the case, but I'm not sure there's much basis to it besides wishful thinking. The fact that some people actually opt for chemical castration because they cannot control their urges leads me to believe that it's fairly deeply psychologically ingrained, and I'm not sure why a compulsion to do something somehow negates any other feeling a person might have. And this isn't a defense of pedophiles (which were not what I was envisioning when I mentioned abusers in my original comment), but it is an attempt at better understanding them. I think that's the best path for everyone involved, as if we understand them, perhaps we can stop them, and help them (preferably prior to any bad behavior), and then everyone is better off. Simply rationalizing that pedophiles do horrible things therefore they are horrible and evil people is a cop-out and will likely never actually fix the problem, as we've seen. I think that results in more victims and more people in prison. If we can prevent the crimes and help the people that would commit them be productive members of society that don't hurt anyone (preferably before they've hurt anyone), should we not do so? Are we not all better off with that outcome?
  - lifeisstillgood 8y ago
    I am not an expert, but I do not believe we have any framework for understanding paedophilia, let alone any category for all other forms of child abuse. There is a framework for understanding say schizophrenia, and so potential for a cure But without such a framework then I cannot see much progress - like downthread i say bank robbers are not bad all the time, abusers are not bad all the time. But the crime is enough to take action. Yes I would like a cure for abusers, just as a cure for robbers. Till then we should treat them all as crimes and prosecute accordingly
    - kbenson 8y ago
      > I do not believe we have any framework for understanding paedophilia, let alone any category for all other forms of child abuse. So, I'm saying perhaps there is something to be learned from examining the problem in depth rather than taking a "shoot on sight" sort of stance. Nothing about that required there be some single unifying framework, it's simply calling for an evidence based examination of whether there are methods that have a more beneficial outcome than that. E.g. In the case of trying to reduce crime in general, you can increase criminal punishments or you can try to prevent people from becoming criminals. I suspect the latter is a better return on investment socially, and for the victims and criminals in particular. > There is a framework for understanding say schizophrenia, and so potential for a cure Good! All the more reason to look for additional frameworks that can help in other types of situations. > Till then we should treat them all as crimes and prosecute accordingly I'm not sure anyone here has said they shouldn't be prosecuted. I certainly haven't. I'm confused as to why you keep bringing it up, since it seems to assume people are arguing against treating sexual child abuse as a crime. Who here is proposing that?

Nobody else mentioned pedophilia. There are other forms of abuse that aren't sexual.

by LocalH 8y ago

Nobody else mentioned pedophilia. There are other forms of abuse that aren't sexual.

lifeisstillgood 8y ago

whatever else is going on in the mind of a paedophile / other abuser, it is not love.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kbenson 8y ago
I'm sure we would all sleep much better at night assuming that's the case, but I'm not sure there's much basis to it besides wishful thinking. The fact that some people actually opt for chemical castration because they cannot control their urges leads me to believe that it's fairly deeply psychologically ingrained, and I'm not sure why a compulsion to do something somehow negates any other feeling a person might have. And this isn't a defense of pedophiles (which were not what I was envisioning when I mentioned abusers in my original comment), but it is an attempt at better understanding them. I think that's the best path for everyone involved, as if we understand them, perhaps we can stop them, and help them (preferably prior to any bad behavior), and then everyone is better off. Simply rationalizing that pedophiles do horrible things therefore they are horrible and evil people is a cop-out and will likely never actually fix the problem, as we've seen. I think that results in more victims and more people in prison. If we can prevent the crimes and help the people that would commit them be productive members of society that don't hurt anyone (preferably before they've hurt anyone), should we not do so? Are we not all better off with that outcome?
- lifeisstillgood 8y ago
  I am not an expert, but I do not believe we have any framework for understanding paedophilia, let alone any category for all other forms of child abuse. There is a framework for understanding say schizophrenia, and so potential for a cure But without such a framework then I cannot see much progress - like downthread i say bank robbers are not bad all the time, abusers are not bad all the time. But the crime is enough to take action. Yes I would like a cure for abusers, just as a cure for robbers. Till then we should treat them all as crimes and prosecute accordingly
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > I do not believe we have any framework for understanding paedophilia, let alone any category for all other forms of child abuse. So, I'm saying perhaps there is something to be learned from examining the problem in depth rather than taking a "shoot on sight" sort of stance. Nothing about that required there be some single unifying framework, it's simply calling for an evidence based examination of whether there are methods that have a more beneficial outcome than that. E.g. In the case of trying to reduce crime in general, you can increase criminal punishments or you can try to prevent people from becoming criminals. I suspect the latter is a better return on investment socially, and for the victims and criminals in particular. > There is a framework for understanding say schizophrenia, and so potential for a cure Good! All the more reason to look for additional frameworks that can help in other types of situations. > Till then we should treat them all as crimes and prosecute accordingly I'm not sure anyone here has said they shouldn't be prosecuted. I certainly haven't. I'm confused as to why you keep bringing it up, since it seems to assume people are arguing against treating sexual child abuse as a crime. Who here is proposing that?