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It's not vocational training. As long as you're taking non-bullshit upper level courses you will have to use one of "those languages that will help them get a

by danmg 8y ago

It's not vocational training. As long as you're taking non-bullshit upper level courses you will have to use one of "those languages that will help them get a job." Systems will have you doing C and ASM. AI will have you doing Python. Scientific computing will have you do Matlab, Fortran, Python and R. Software engineering will have you do Java. Computer Vision will have you do C++.

scarface74 8y ago
Since when was the idea of going to college to get a “vocation” a bad thing? It’s not like most parents and students are getting in thousands of debt to “expand their minds”. They are doing it for thier children to have upward mobility.
- danmg 8y ago
  Outright selling a vocation isn't what four year colleges do. If that's all you want, do a certificate program at a community college. Nothing wrong with them. If you want to retool from doing oil changes to being a CNC Operator or writing Javascript it's a very good option. Vocational training in a four year program is a side-effect, not a feature.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    And you do a certificate program and not be as competitive as someone with a 4 year degree. Why is computer science special? Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. Do you think most people can afford to spend tens of thousands in college to be a theoretical “better citizen of the world”? What are the people who didn’t get an education that was going to help them get a job do?
    - danmg 8y ago
      >Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. False. Employability is a side-effect of those as well. If you don't like that, don't get a four year degree. Many people don't and are successful. If you want to be forced to have a broad background of different areas in computer science, learn theory, and do many-many projects, get a four year CS degree. Don't want to be pigeonholed into doing the latest-greatest variation of Visual FoxPro for the rest of your life? Get a CS degree.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        So which degrees are those that don't prepare you for a job Engineering? Medical? Law? Education? Journalism? And what are they suppose to do after they graduate with a degree that won't get them a job? Don't want to be pigeonholed into doing the latest-greatest variation of Visual FoxPro for the rest of your life? Get a CS degree. A CS graduate that learned Java, .Net, Javascript, and/or C++ -- all popular languages a decade ago -- would still find themselves highly employable using those same languages today. Yes they have to keep learning, but at least they wouldn't be in their parents basement not being able to find a job competing with a bunch of boot camp grads and outsourced cheaper developers.
        danmg 8y ago
        Engineering is the same as CS in this regard. You might have a CAD class to give you some fundamentals, but that's a very small part of what engineers learn. Medical and Law are professional post-graduate degrees. Education in the US is heavily subsidized and incentivized to keep a pipeline of K12 educators coming in. Journalism is a liberal arts discipline. What vocational skills are they coming out with? How to follow a style guide? Most of them have to be fully supported by their parents if they want to take a prestigious unpaid internship in an expensive city, and even then the job market is very bleak. I'm really not sure where you're trying to go by bringing up journalism. I'm really not seeing what point you're trying to make. The vocational skills learned are incidental. You will be employable in the field if you didn't slack off and challenged yourself while getting your degree.
        scarface74 8y ago
        You still didn't answer the main question. What are these CS grads going to do without any practical skills when some can't even pass the FizzBuzz challenge? How are they going to compete when they get in the real world? Most companies aren't willing to train junior devs how to program and why should they when there are plenty of junior developers who came out of the equivalent of "Java schools" and boot camps that can immediately be somewhat productive? Yes, I've told my sons that I won't help them pay for any degree that won't help them be employable when they get out of school -- basically their choices were STEM related, education, or the medical field. Liberal arts was not an option. I was also okay with them choosing trade school.

by danmg 8y ago

scarface74 8y ago

Since when was the idea of going to college to get a “vocation” a bad thing? It’s not like most parents and students are getting in thousands of debt to “expand their minds”. They are doing it for thier children to have upward mobility.

danmg 8y ago
Outright selling a vocation isn't what four year colleges do. If that's all you want, do a certificate program at a community college. Nothing wrong with them. If you want to retool from doing oil changes to being a CNC Operator or writing Javascript it's a very good option. Vocational training in a four year program is a side-effect, not a feature.
- scarface74 8y ago
  And you do a certificate program and not be as competitive as someone with a 4 year degree. Why is computer science special? Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. Do you think most people can afford to spend tens of thousands in college to be a theoretical “better citizen of the world”? What are the people who didn’t get an education that was going to help them get a job do?
  - danmg 8y ago
    >Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. False. Employability is a side-effect of those as well. If you don't like that, don't get a four year degree. Many people don't and are successful. If you want to be forced to have a broad background of different areas in computer science, learn theory, and do many-many projects, get a four year CS degree. Don't want to be pigeonholed into doing the latest-greatest variation of Visual FoxPro for the rest of your life? Get a CS degree.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      So which degrees are those that don't prepare you for a job Engineering? Medical? Law? Education? Journalism? And what are they suppose to do after they graduate with a degree that won't get them a job? Don't want to be pigeonholed into doing the latest-greatest variation of Visual FoxPro for the rest of your life? Get a CS degree. A CS graduate that learned Java, .Net, Javascript, and/or C++ -- all popular languages a decade ago -- would still find themselves highly employable using those same languages today. Yes they have to keep learning, but at least they wouldn't be in their parents basement not being able to find a job competing with a bunch of boot camp grads and outsourced cheaper developers.
      - danmg 8y ago
        Engineering is the same as CS in this regard. You might have a CAD class to give you some fundamentals, but that's a very small part of what engineers learn. Medical and Law are professional post-graduate degrees. Education in the US is heavily subsidized and incentivized to keep a pipeline of K12 educators coming in. Journalism is a liberal arts discipline. What vocational skills are they coming out with? How to follow a style guide? Most of them have to be fully supported by their parents if they want to take a prestigious unpaid internship in an expensive city, and even then the job market is very bleak. I'm really not sure where you're trying to go by bringing up journalism. I'm really not seeing what point you're trying to make. The vocational skills learned are incidental. You will be employable in the field if you didn't slack off and challenged yourself while getting your degree.
        scarface74 8y ago
        You still didn't answer the main question. What are these CS grads going to do without any practical skills when some can't even pass the FizzBuzz challenge? How are they going to compete when they get in the real world? Most companies aren't willing to train junior devs how to program and why should they when there are plenty of junior developers who came out of the equivalent of "Java schools" and boot camps that can immediately be somewhat productive? Yes, I've told my sons that I won't help them pay for any degree that won't help them be employable when they get out of school -- basically their choices were STEM related, education, or the medical field. Liberal arts was not an option. I was also okay with them choosing trade school.