5 ms·

Only iOS forces you to use WebKit which is why it's used by Chrome/Edge/Opera. It's not impossible to decouple them, you're prohibited by the license from using

by mythz 8y ago

Only iOS forces you to use WebKit which is why it's used by Chrome/Edge/Opera. It's not impossible to decouple them, you're prohibited by the license from using an alternative browser engine. Android doesn't have any such restrictions so Firefox on Android are able to use their Gecko engine.

partiallypro 8y ago
Thanks for the correction, either way, I view it as a problem that you can't (easily?) decouple in iOS. Some of these browsers listed have no mobile version, at least not ones fully baked. That alone forces people into the hands of the mobile defaults like Chrome and Safari.
- mythz 8y ago
  I'm not clear why it matters that it's not available for iOS? All iOS browsers must use WebKit which is what's Chrome's Blink engine is based on and what all browsers mentioned above use. A mobile browser is a completely different Application then a Desktop browser so you're still going to be using a different "Browser" Application, so I guess I don't understand why my choice for using the built-in Safari on iOS would impact which Desktop browser I'd choose to use?
  - partiallypro 8y ago
    Because the focus on decoupling from Google, etc is to prevent control of larger corporations and from data intrusion. Mobile is a huge facet of search/browsing now. If you are only decoupling 50% of web usage, you aren't making much of a dent on the behemoths to change their behavior.
    - mythz 8y ago
      Then I really don't get it, Safari is the most dominant browser on iOS and on Android you can use whatever you want - so you never have to use Chrome anywhere.
      - partiallypro 8y ago
        I'm not sure what you don't get. It's not just about Chrome. Decoupling Google services from Chromium is more than about Chrome itself, it's a backlash against Google and data collection at large. You could just promote Firefox instead of Vivaldi, but you didn't. Why not? I assume because you like choice...and that choice should continue to extend on mobile platforms.
        mythz 8y ago
        > I'm not sure what you don't get. Because you're not clear on what exactly your grievances are with Vivalidi/Brave/Opera using the Blink rendering engine and how exactly does using Safari on iOS or Firefox on Android enforce Google data collection? > It's not just about Chrome. Decoupling Google services from Chromium is more than about Chrome itself, it's a backlash against Google and data collection at large. You need to read up on what Chromium is, its an Open Source Chromium browser Chrome is built on without Google Services (i.e. what Chrome is). A large differentiator for Vivaldi and Brave is their privacy first browsers that don't track you: https://vivaldi.com/features/privacy-security/ https://vivaldi.com/features/privacy-security/ https://brave.com/features/ https://brave.com/features/ > You could just promote Firefox instead of Vivaldi, but you didn't. Why not? Because the whole premise of the article is for making a modified Chromium browser fork, when they could instead use one of the existing actively developed Chromium browsers founded by browser engineers. I have no issue with Firefox which I use as my secondary browser, but the replacement for my main browser Chrome would need to be another Blink-based browser. But I still have no idea what the rendering engine used in Mobile browsers has to do with anything. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)
        partiallypro 8y ago
        If you don't understand what I'm trying to say after 5 or so replies, I don't think I'll ever be able to communicate it.
- h1d 8y ago
  > I view it as a problem What kind of problem? It makes web browsing stable as the internal engine is tested by Apple without third party bringing their own with updates at random moments and from web developer's perspective, they get a predictable result within iOS without effort and from those, I don't see a problem from users' perspective too. Maybe you work for Mozilla.
  - babuskov 8y ago
    > from web developer's perspective, they get a predictable result within iOS without effort and from those... > Maybe you work for Mozilla. Maybe you're a lazy web developer. The only thing I miss on iPhone is Gecko. I often run into website that doesn't render properly in Safari and at that point I want to have an alternative rendering engine that would solve the problem. Currently I have to find a desktop computer for it. This has become such a problem lately, because some of the websites I often use and need to get important information from have this issue, so I always have to be sure that I'll have desktop computer around or carry an Android tablet with me. Next time I buy a phone, it will be Android unless Apple changes their policy on browser rendering engine. If I knew this worked the way it works, I would have never bought the iPhone in the first place.
  - phobosdeimos 8y ago
    Choice is bad. Anyone remember the 1980s Apple commercial referencing Big Brother? Hilarious in hindsight. https://youtu.be/2zfqw8nhUwA https://youtu.be/2zfqw8nhUwA
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    If you think Apple's software updates provide "predictable results" you can't have been paying attention for the past few years.
  - stordoff 8y ago
    Did it also bring stability when Microsoft bundled IE with Windows? Because I'm not sure how you can differentiate the two (and I doubt most would think that was good for the long term health of the Internet).
aedron 8y ago
> you're prohibited by the license from using an alternative browser engine Interesting. Isn't that what Microsoft was tried and convicted for in the 90s?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Isn't that what Microsoft was tried and convicted for in the 90s? No, Microsoft was tried and convicted for illegally leveraging an existing monopoly. The particular actions weren't necessarily illegal outside of the context of a pre-existing monopoly.

by mythz 8y ago

partiallypro 8y ago

Thanks for the correction, either way, I view it as a problem that you can't (easily?) decouple in iOS. Some of these browsers listed have no mobile version, at least not ones fully baked. That alone forces people into the hands of the mobile defaults like Chrome and Safari.

mythz 8y ago
I'm not clear why it matters that it's not available for iOS? All iOS browsers must use WebKit which is what's Chrome's Blink engine is based on and what all browsers mentioned above use. A mobile browser is a completely different Application then a Desktop browser so you're still going to be using a different "Browser" Application, so I guess I don't understand why my choice for using the built-in Safari on iOS would impact which Desktop browser I'd choose to use?
- partiallypro 8y ago
  Because the focus on decoupling from Google, etc is to prevent control of larger corporations and from data intrusion. Mobile is a huge facet of search/browsing now. If you are only decoupling 50% of web usage, you aren't making much of a dent on the behemoths to change their behavior.
  - mythz 8y ago
    Then I really don't get it, Safari is the most dominant browser on iOS and on Android you can use whatever you want - so you never have to use Chrome anywhere.
    - partiallypro 8y ago
      I'm not sure what you don't get. It's not just about Chrome. Decoupling Google services from Chromium is more than about Chrome itself, it's a backlash against Google and data collection at large. You could just promote Firefox instead of Vivaldi, but you didn't. Why not? I assume because you like choice...and that choice should continue to extend on mobile platforms.
      - mythz 8y ago
        > I'm not sure what you don't get. Because you're not clear on what exactly your grievances are with Vivalidi/Brave/Opera using the Blink rendering engine and how exactly does using Safari on iOS or Firefox on Android enforce Google data collection? > It's not just about Chrome. Decoupling Google services from Chromium is more than about Chrome itself, it's a backlash against Google and data collection at large. You need to read up on what Chromium is, its an Open Source Chromium browser Chrome is built on without Google Services (i.e. what Chrome is). A large differentiator for Vivaldi and Brave is their privacy first browsers that don't track you: https://vivaldi.com/features/privacy-security/ https://vivaldi.com/features/privacy-security/ https://brave.com/features/ https://brave.com/features/ > You could just promote Firefox instead of Vivaldi, but you didn't. Why not? Because the whole premise of the article is for making a modified Chromium browser fork, when they could instead use one of the existing actively developed Chromium browsers founded by browser engineers. I have no issue with Firefox which I use as my secondary browser, but the replacement for my main browser Chrome would need to be another Blink-based browser. But I still have no idea what the rendering engine used in Mobile browsers has to do with anything. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(web_browser)
        partiallypro 8y ago
        If you don't understand what I'm trying to say after 5 or so replies, I don't think I'll ever be able to communicate it.
h1d 8y ago
> I view it as a problem What kind of problem? It makes web browsing stable as the internal engine is tested by Apple without third party bringing their own with updates at random moments and from web developer's perspective, they get a predictable result within iOS without effort and from those, I don't see a problem from users' perspective too. Maybe you work for Mozilla.
- babuskov 8y ago
  > from web developer's perspective, they get a predictable result within iOS without effort and from those... > Maybe you work for Mozilla. Maybe you're a lazy web developer. The only thing I miss on iPhone is Gecko. I often run into website that doesn't render properly in Safari and at that point I want to have an alternative rendering engine that would solve the problem. Currently I have to find a desktop computer for it. This has become such a problem lately, because some of the websites I often use and need to get important information from have this issue, so I always have to be sure that I'll have desktop computer around or carry an Android tablet with me. Next time I buy a phone, it will be Android unless Apple changes their policy on browser rendering engine. If I knew this worked the way it works, I would have never bought the iPhone in the first place.
- phobosdeimos 8y ago
  Choice is bad. Anyone remember the 1980s Apple commercial referencing Big Brother? Hilarious in hindsight. https://youtu.be/2zfqw8nhUwA https://youtu.be/2zfqw8nhUwA
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  If you think Apple's software updates provide "predictable results" you can't have been paying attention for the past few years.
- stordoff 8y ago
  Did it also bring stability when Microsoft bundled IE with Windows? Because I'm not sure how you can differentiate the two (and I doubt most would think that was good for the long term health of the Internet).

aedron 8y ago

> you're prohibited by the license from using an alternative browser engine Interesting. Isn't that what Microsoft was tried and convicted for in the 90s?

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Isn't that what Microsoft was tried and convicted for in the 90s? No, Microsoft was tried and convicted for illegally leveraging an existing monopoly. The particular actions weren't necessarily illegal outside of the context of a pre-existing monopoly.