5 ms·

Opera is a remnant of the worst kind of nouveau riche status seeking. Why do Americans listen to Opera in languages they don't speak? The English watch English

by cm2012 8y ago

Opera is a remnant of the worst kind of nouveau riche status seeking. Why do Americans listen to Opera in languages they don't speak? The English watch English operas, the French French, Italian Italian, etc. This is because the newly wealthy 19th century Americans wanted to seem fancy like they thought the rich Europeans were. The less pretentious form is just musicals, which are as popular today as they've ever been.

davidgay 8y ago
https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/season-17-18/opera/Parsifal https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/season-17-18/opera/Parsifal And for Wagner in another non-German speaking country: https://www.operasofia.bg/en/component/k2/item/download/512_d5fcb963b30fe4543aa70313ba3450b8 https://www.operasofia.bg/en/component/k2/item/download/512_... (Wagner in an actual cave was quite fun)
ken 8y ago
Is it also "nouveau riche status seeking" to watch movies in languages we don't speak? Is "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" not a valid film for me to enjoy because I can't appreciate it in its native Mandarin? That sounds even more pompous to me.
- checkyoursudo 8y ago
  I would go see a foreign-language opera if there were real-time subtitles displayed in my preferred language.
  - abakker 8y ago
    The metropolitan opera house in nyc does, fwiw.
  - gboss 8y ago
    A long time ago I went to an opera with real time subtitles, it worked well. I didn't know that it was uncommon to be subtitled when in a different language than the one spoken in the area.
  - tacon 8y ago
    I believe the official name is "surtitles", as they appear above the stage. (One small advantage for the cheap, high seats with easy view of surtitles.) Those are pretty standard these days in the big theaters. Don't be fooled that the Germans and Italians are understanding all the lyrics. With the long, drawn out notes and flourishes from the orchestra drowning out the singers, many/most of the native listeners are following along because they already know the lyrics. Ditto for the few operas in English. I have had surtitles for Nixon in China, and definitely needed them.
  - veridies 8y ago
    I have never seen an opera not do this. In Turin they offered subtitles in both the original language (English, as it happened) and in Italian, which was cool. I think some of the objections here come from people who really don’t have much experience going to opera. It’s pretty affordable in San Francisco, and it’s a lot of fun; I recommend everyone try it out.
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    If you get to know it first before you see it live, you will enjoy it more, and that won't be a problem. Then if you don't like it, you can save your money and see something you like instead.
  - frobozz 8y ago
    Very few opera houses offer subtitles. This is because subtitles near or on the stage would be difficult to read due to the heads of those in front of you. Some (e.g. Vienna) have a seat-back system that shows subtitles. Surtitles, on the other hand, are pretty much ubiquitous.
barry-cotter 8y ago
If you have no idea what you’re talking about it’s generally better to keep quiet.
- manangatangy 8y ago
  Agreed. I wonder how many commenters on this thread have actually been to an opera. The operas I've been to were intensely moving experiences, even though I could barely understand a word of Italian.
JoshMnem 8y ago
I don't think that American musicals are musically interesting in the same way (at least the ones I've heard). If you go to see a live opera, there are often subtitles above the stage. If you watch them on video, there are subtitles.
grey-area 8y ago
Europe is not different in this regard. Usually the opera is sung in the language it was written in (tends to be German or Italian). So in England/UK most Operas are in those languages, not in English. There are some of course, and they make more of an effort now to put on things which were written in English to make it more accessible. You're correct to compare them to Musicals though, in terms of content/storyline they are very similar, the musical style and social class of the audience (in general) are the big differentiator. You can also listen to Opera without visiting an Opera house though. Opera is a remnant of the worst kind of nouveau riche status seeking. This is a bit reductive and unfair - people can enjoy the music of Opera without thinking it makes them better than others.
salawat 8y ago
This...may sound silly. But... There is something to be said for listening to an Opera in a language you don't speak. It completely bypasses any part of your brain that tries to intellectualize, and just hits you in the feels. It's not always about status seeking, it's about getting away from the ugliness that pervades the world around you and getting lost in something beautiful in it's own right. I don't often enjoy 'watching' Operas, the visual context keeps me locked in the state of mind I'm trying to escape from. Only listening. Rare exception to the special treat of a singer belting out in a random spot on the streets. Just wanted to point out that not everyone looks at art as a social ladder, or even take the same things out of art that someone else does.

by cm2012 8y ago

davidgay 8y ago

https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/season-17-18/opera/Parsifal https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/season-17-18/opera/Parsifal And for Wagner in another non-German speaking country: https://www.operasofia.bg/en/component/k2/item/download/512_d5fcb963b30fe4543aa70313ba3450b8 https://www.operasofia.bg/en/component/k2/item/download/512_... (Wagner in an actual cave was quite fun)

ken 8y ago

Is it also "nouveau riche status seeking" to watch movies in languages we don't speak? Is "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" not a valid film for me to enjoy because I can't appreciate it in its native Mandarin? That sounds even more pompous to me.

checkyoursudo 8y ago
I would go see a foreign-language opera if there were real-time subtitles displayed in my preferred language.
- abakker 8y ago
  The metropolitan opera house in nyc does, fwiw.
- gboss 8y ago
  A long time ago I went to an opera with real time subtitles, it worked well. I didn't know that it was uncommon to be subtitled when in a different language than the one spoken in the area.
- tacon 8y ago
  I believe the official name is "surtitles", as they appear above the stage. (One small advantage for the cheap, high seats with easy view of surtitles.) Those are pretty standard these days in the big theaters. Don't be fooled that the Germans and Italians are understanding all the lyrics. With the long, drawn out notes and flourishes from the orchestra drowning out the singers, many/most of the native listeners are following along because they already know the lyrics. Ditto for the few operas in English. I have had surtitles for Nixon in China, and definitely needed them.
- veridies 8y ago
  I have never seen an opera not do this. In Turin they offered subtitles in both the original language (English, as it happened) and in Italian, which was cool. I think some of the objections here come from people who really don’t have much experience going to opera. It’s pretty affordable in San Francisco, and it’s a lot of fun; I recommend everyone try it out.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  If you get to know it first before you see it live, you will enjoy it more, and that won't be a problem. Then if you don't like it, you can save your money and see something you like instead.
- frobozz 8y ago
  Very few opera houses offer subtitles. This is because subtitles near or on the stage would be difficult to read due to the heads of those in front of you. Some (e.g. Vienna) have a seat-back system that shows subtitles. Surtitles, on the other hand, are pretty much ubiquitous.

barry-cotter 8y ago

If you have no idea what you’re talking about it’s generally better to keep quiet.

manangatangy 8y ago
Agreed. I wonder how many commenters on this thread have actually been to an opera. The operas I've been to were intensely moving experiences, even though I could barely understand a word of Italian.

JoshMnem 8y ago

I don't think that American musicals are musically interesting in the same way (at least the ones I've heard). If you go to see a live opera, there are often subtitles above the stage. If you watch them on video, there are subtitles.

grey-area 8y ago

Europe is not different in this regard. Usually the opera is sung in the language it was written in (tends to be German or Italian). So in England/UK most Operas are in those languages, not in English. There are some of course, and they make more of an effort now to put on things which were written in English to make it more accessible. You're correct to compare them to Musicals though, in terms of content/storyline they are very similar, the musical style and social class of the audience (in general) are the big differentiator. You can also listen to Opera without visiting an Opera house though. Opera is a remnant of the worst kind of nouveau riche status seeking. This is a bit reductive and unfair - people can enjoy the music of Opera without thinking it makes them better than others.

salawat 8y ago

This...may sound silly. But... There is something to be said for listening to an Opera in a language you don't speak. It completely bypasses any part of your brain that tries to intellectualize, and just hits you in the feels. It's not always about status seeking, it's about getting away from the ugliness that pervades the world around you and getting lost in something beautiful in it's own right. I don't often enjoy 'watching' Operas, the visual context keeps me locked in the state of mind I'm trying to escape from. Only listening. Rare exception to the special treat of a singer belting out in a random spot on the streets. Just wanted to point out that not everyone looks at art as a social ladder, or even take the same things out of art that someone else does.