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You're justifying what is animal equivalent of institutionalization (I'm sure there's a more technical term for it for animal behavior). I recall reading about

You're justifying what is animal equivalent of institutionalization (I'm sure there's a more technical term for it for animal behavior). I recall reading about a behavioral phenomenon, where a neglected, abused animal (a large feline, if I recall correctly) was kept in a tiny cage it could only circle around in endlessly, no room to even pace. Once let out into a far larger enclosure, it would still perform this circular pacing despite having plenty of room to roam free. Do you suppose it really "loved" its old cage so much? I may add that I too kept a budgie for 13 long years.

udp 8y ago
I’m really not. When I first got the most recent budgies I was working from home and the cage was open all day so they were free to roam. They quickly made it their home and seldom left because a) that was where the food was and b) as a pair, they need somewhere to potentially build a nest. You said you kept “a” budgie. They are highly social creatures and do not like being kept alone.
- paavoova 8y ago
  I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. Accessible food reinforces behavioral habits, so of course the cage with the food would quickly become their home. How then, exactly, can you quantify that they "love" their cage, as opposed to a large aviary or even freedom to roam in the wild? And I'm not going to make assumptions about your home decor, but most modern homes are neither furnished nor accessibly to birds, posing an immediate danger more than anything. The familiarity and safety of a cage may then be more enticing than flying around a home, and I certainly noticed this behavior in my birds (e.g. loud sounds would send them flying back to their cage in a fright, and in general a reluctance to come out). The fact that captive animals can adapt to their cages, like a man does to prison, doesn't mean this is good for them nor that it's justifiable. And unlike a man, a captive-raised animal cannot comprehend anything else. You have chosen that life for them and are justifying it. As for my singular budgie: one outlived the other by many years.
  - udp 8y ago
    Prison analogies. You obviously have a strong opinion about this, which I respect - but I don’t have the time or energy to enter into a debate.
    - macawfish 8y ago
      I have a strong opinion on this. As a child, I saw our pet parakeet get depressed and lonely even as we provided him the best material care we could give. We let him around the house regularly, and he once escaped, but loved my father and came back when my dad climbed a ladder into a pine tree he had perched in. The bird eventually died a bitter, antisocial death, annoyed with human attempts to play with him, but lonely and longing for company. Sure, we should have gotten a pair, but these animals are not meant to live in little cages. Yes, some can be content, especially in pairs. But it's fundamentally unnecessary to keep them in cages like that.
      - bigmanwalter 8y ago
        In nature, they are far more likely to end up as prey than to live a long happy life. Street cats live to the age of 5 on average. House cats live until 13. Freedom is a fantasy.
        macawfish 8y ago
        A film recommendation for you: Watership Down.
  - murukesh_s 8y ago
    Aren't most of our cities are glorified prisons? There are billions of people who are confined to their homes for their lives especially in developing countries either due to economic reasons and or social reasons (just saying I dont own or justifying keeping a bird in the cage )
    - root_axis 8y ago
wumms 8y ago
I've seen a bear still running in small circles in a 3.500m² compound in a zoo after being relocated there from another zoo (where they might have shot it). The reason for the circling (not enough space) was explained to us by the staff of the zoo. They said it'd wear off after a couple of months. Bear "Max" was 7 years old at the time (in 2000 or 2001). The 20 year old mother "Alma" was not running in circles. After the mother died in 2007, it seems the bear was held alone for 10 years. Max is still alive and with a partner now (Animal Park Olderdissen, Bielefeld, Germany).
- udp 8y ago
  I've seen this myself in Belgrade zoo, Serbia. Wolves running around in cages not much bigger than my budgie cage. It's not OK. However this shouldn't be used as a straw man to argue against what I said regarding budgies considering the huge phylogenetic distance between birds and mammals.
gerbilly 8y ago
> it would still perform this circular pacing despite having plenty of room to roam free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy#In_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy#In_animals

udp 8y ago

I’m really not. When I first got the most recent budgies I was working from home and the cage was open all day so they were free to roam. They quickly made it their home and seldom left because a) that was where the food was and b) as a pair, they need somewhere to potentially build a nest. You said you kept “a” budgie. They are highly social creatures and do not like being kept alone.

paavoova 8y ago
I don't quite follow your line of reasoning. Accessible food reinforces behavioral habits, so of course the cage with the food would quickly become their home. How then, exactly, can you quantify that they "love" their cage, as opposed to a large aviary or even freedom to roam in the wild? And I'm not going to make assumptions about your home decor, but most modern homes are neither furnished nor accessibly to birds, posing an immediate danger more than anything. The familiarity and safety of a cage may then be more enticing than flying around a home, and I certainly noticed this behavior in my birds (e.g. loud sounds would send them flying back to their cage in a fright, and in general a reluctance to come out). The fact that captive animals can adapt to their cages, like a man does to prison, doesn't mean this is good for them nor that it's justifiable. And unlike a man, a captive-raised animal cannot comprehend anything else. You have chosen that life for them and are justifying it. As for my singular budgie: one outlived the other by many years.
- udp 8y ago
  Prison analogies. You obviously have a strong opinion about this, which I respect - but I don’t have the time or energy to enter into a debate.
  - macawfish 8y ago
    I have a strong opinion on this. As a child, I saw our pet parakeet get depressed and lonely even as we provided him the best material care we could give. We let him around the house regularly, and he once escaped, but loved my father and came back when my dad climbed a ladder into a pine tree he had perched in. The bird eventually died a bitter, antisocial death, annoyed with human attempts to play with him, but lonely and longing for company. Sure, we should have gotten a pair, but these animals are not meant to live in little cages. Yes, some can be content, especially in pairs. But it's fundamentally unnecessary to keep them in cages like that.
    - bigmanwalter 8y ago
      In nature, they are far more likely to end up as prey than to live a long happy life. Street cats live to the age of 5 on average. House cats live until 13. Freedom is a fantasy.
      - macawfish 8y ago
        A film recommendation for you: Watership Down.
- murukesh_s 8y ago
  Aren't most of our cities are glorified prisons? There are billions of people who are confined to their homes for their lives especially in developing countries either due to economic reasons and or social reasons (just saying I dont own or justifying keeping a bird in the cage )
  - root_axis 8y ago

wumms 8y ago

I've seen a bear still running in small circles in a 3.500m² compound in a zoo after being relocated there from another zoo (where they might have shot it). The reason for the circling (not enough space) was explained to us by the staff of the zoo. They said it'd wear off after a couple of months. Bear "Max" was 7 years old at the time (in 2000 or 2001). The 20 year old mother "Alma" was not running in circles. After the mother died in 2007, it seems the bear was held alone for 10 years. Max is still alive and with a partner now (Animal Park Olderdissen, Bielefeld, Germany).

udp 8y ago
I've seen this myself in Belgrade zoo, Serbia. Wolves running around in cages not much bigger than my budgie cage. It's not OK. However this shouldn't be used as a straw man to argue against what I said regarding budgies considering the huge phylogenetic distance between birds and mammals.

gerbilly 8y ago

> it would still perform this circular pacing despite having plenty of room to roam free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy#In_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy#In_animals