7 ms·

Why app-only? Is it so hard to provide a website too?

by incompatible 8y ago

ur-whale 8y ago
Is there any difference between the two these days?
- incompatible 8y ago
  Because you can run Android apps in Chrome these days (I heard somewhere, I don't use it), and make websites run likes apps (webassembly)?
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  There is a very important difference between the two. You can access a web site via ubiquitous, open-standards compliant software known as web browers. This means you can use the service from any operating system/computing platform you wish, existing or future, provided it implements said standards. It's obviously important that we resist transitioning to a world where core life activities like commerce and banking requires running proprietary software on a finite set of supported proprietary systems. This is fundamentally about our freedom.
  - dbbk 8y ago
    If someone doesn't have an iOS or Android device they have the freedom to bank with a traditional bank.
    - newnewpdro 8y ago
      So we're in agreement then that they would've lost the freedom to bank electronically using any computer and software of their choosing.
    - ttty 8y ago
      What about when 99pc of the banks will only offer iOS and Android. No or os will be able to compete with them because the backing apps don't work. Now OSes can stagnate and become worse because they know you'll sick to them because you have no choice. A new player would need to create a OS and a bank to compete. And probably more stuff.
BerislavLopac 8y ago
I seriously expect, in the near future, only people with highly specialist needs like software developers, video/audio professionals and the like to still use some kind of laptop or desktop -- everyone else will pretty much move to some kind of tablet of various sizes (including mobile "phones").
- incompatible 8y ago
  I think by "highly specialist needs" you mean creating content rather than just consuming it.
  - richardknop 8y ago
    Exactly, basically every office worker in service economy who needs to use Excel/Word/Powerpoint or any application like that will be using a desktop computer decade from now. People saying mobile phones or tables are going to take over this segment of market are missing how difficult it is to create content on mobile phone other than pictures or short videos.
    - BerislavLopac 8y ago
      I'm not saying that tablets will take over this segment -- I'm saying that this segment will be replaced by automating data processes.
    - freeone3000 8y ago
      They'll look like laptops but won't be running Windows, Linux, or Mac. They'll be running iOS or Android. The iPad Pro or the Surface line are the first entries into this model. The pure Android solutions are more DIY but really, slap a keyboard onto a tablet and you've got something perfectly servicable for Word or Excel, at a higher performance/$ and a smaller attack surface than currently deployed desktops.
  - BerislavLopac 8y ago
    No, I mean "creating highly specialist content". Many types of content can already be -- and in many cases is -- quite validly created on devices like iPad Pro: photography, drawings, graphical design, and above all writing. And the tools are still being improved.
md_ 8y ago
Hmm. At least with revolut, app only means they can do infrequent SMS auth (for setting up a new phone) and otherwise use the stable phone for auth. I suppose the key point here is that requiring their users to have a smartphone allows them to really simplify auth, but that doesn’t preclude also offering a website. Maybe they just don’t think most users would want it? (My personal usage of revolut is quite limited and the app works fine for me.) Maybe the bigger question I have here is what the core innovation is. I use revolut for the cheap currency exchanges, but there’s no reason any other bank couldn’t offer that. Maybe the market for such services is just very small, or most traditional banks make more money by selling add on services (mortgages, say) based on a very tight relationship (vs revolut’s more temporary/limited usage model).
- fpoling 8y ago
  The core innovation is to make the app really polished and straightforward to use to cut the support costs. Traditional banks may not care about it enough as in the worst case they can direct the customer to a local office.
  - incompatible 8y ago
    That applies equally to online-only banks (i.e., websites), which are hardly a new innovation.
- tixocloud 8y ago
  You're spot on. I'm in strategy and we monitor the challenger banks regularly. Very little money is earned from things like current accounts, which is what all these app-only banks. Money is to be made in loans, mortgages and credit cards. Despite all the great hype, they are still a tiny proportion of the number of customers that mainstream banks have. Great app, great user experience but would be interesting to see how profitable these challenger banks are.
  - md_ 8y ago
    FWIW, revolut appears to be aimed st selling different (probably lower overhead) services. Their premium accounts offer higher withdrawal limits, but they also sell cellphone insurance, etc. Still, as a skeptic, I can’t shake the thought that they’re just building market share at low profitability based on VC overexuberance.
fpoling 8y ago
Few years ago I consulted a bank in Norway. It was hard to believe how many customers used infected browsers to connect to the website resulting in huge support cost. The app is much more secure especially on iPhone or modern androids with crypto enclave or what ever it is called. With that even if a customer installs malicious app and grant it a lot of permission, the bank app can still be unaffected.
- incompatible 8y ago
  My phone is about 5 years old and runs Android 4.2, I wouldn't trust it with anything financial.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    And mine runs a 2018 build of LineageOS but the bank apps don't trust it because it is rooted. We're approaching a point of lockdown where Google and Apple win the war against general-purpose computing. I don't know what I'll do then, perhaps just keep a vanilla Android device in a drawer purely for running apps that I need? But I'd better keep it updated or else the apps may refuse to run. And with an app-only bank that's a scary scenario.
    - Semaphor 8y ago
      N26 works on rooted phones AND have a website (and I'd go through the trouble of switching banks again if they discontinued it), but for transfers you need the app.
- gruez 8y ago
  >The app is much more secure especially on iPhone or modern androids with crypto enclave or what ever it is called. With that even if a customer installs malicious app and grant it a lot of permission, the bank app can still be unaffected. "crypto enclave" isn't a silver bullet that magically prevents you from getting hacked. it might keep your signing keys from being divulged, but if the attacker has root access (or jailbroken), there's nothing preventing the attacker from getting the enclave to sign whatever request it wants. at the very least it can corrupt the legitimate app's memory to force it to make a transfer. the security comes from sandboxing, not secure element/enclave.
TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
In Monzo's case they do have a limited website for emergency situations. I suspect it comes down to security and development effort. Modern mobile devices are secure and can be trusted somewhat for authentication, and focusing on a great app for two platforms might be the best use of development resources.
zimbatm 8y ago
N26 has a website as well. The N26 app look like it's a web view.

Why app-only? Is it so hard to provide a website too?

ur-whale 8y ago

Is there any difference between the two these days?

incompatible 8y ago
Because you can run Android apps in Chrome these days (I heard somewhere, I don't use it), and make websites run likes apps (webassembly)?
newnewpdro 8y ago
There is a very important difference between the two. You can access a web site via ubiquitous, open-standards compliant software known as web browers. This means you can use the service from any operating system/computing platform you wish, existing or future, provided it implements said standards. It's obviously important that we resist transitioning to a world where core life activities like commerce and banking requires running proprietary software on a finite set of supported proprietary systems. This is fundamentally about our freedom.
- dbbk 8y ago
  If someone doesn't have an iOS or Android device they have the freedom to bank with a traditional bank.
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    So we're in agreement then that they would've lost the freedom to bank electronically using any computer and software of their choosing.
  - ttty 8y ago
    What about when 99pc of the banks will only offer iOS and Android. No or os will be able to compete with them because the backing apps don't work. Now OSes can stagnate and become worse because they know you'll sick to them because you have no choice. A new player would need to create a OS and a bank to compete. And probably more stuff.

BerislavLopac 8y ago

I seriously expect, in the near future, only people with highly specialist needs like software developers, video/audio professionals and the like to still use some kind of laptop or desktop -- everyone else will pretty much move to some kind of tablet of various sizes (including mobile "phones").

incompatible 8y ago
I think by "highly specialist needs" you mean creating content rather than just consuming it.
- richardknop 8y ago
  Exactly, basically every office worker in service economy who needs to use Excel/Word/Powerpoint or any application like that will be using a desktop computer decade from now. People saying mobile phones or tables are going to take over this segment of market are missing how difficult it is to create content on mobile phone other than pictures or short videos.
  - BerislavLopac 8y ago
    I'm not saying that tablets will take over this segment -- I'm saying that this segment will be replaced by automating data processes.
  - freeone3000 8y ago
    They'll look like laptops but won't be running Windows, Linux, or Mac. They'll be running iOS or Android. The iPad Pro or the Surface line are the first entries into this model. The pure Android solutions are more DIY but really, slap a keyboard onto a tablet and you've got something perfectly servicable for Word or Excel, at a higher performance/$ and a smaller attack surface than currently deployed desktops.
- BerislavLopac 8y ago
  No, I mean "creating highly specialist content". Many types of content can already be -- and in many cases is -- quite validly created on devices like iPad Pro: photography, drawings, graphical design, and above all writing. And the tools are still being improved.

md_ 8y ago

Hmm. At least with revolut, app only means they can do infrequent SMS auth (for setting up a new phone) and otherwise use the stable phone for auth. I suppose the key point here is that requiring their users to have a smartphone allows them to really simplify auth, but that doesn’t preclude also offering a website. Maybe they just don’t think most users would want it? (My personal usage of revolut is quite limited and the app works fine for me.) Maybe the bigger question I have here is what the core innovation is. I use revolut for the cheap currency exchanges, but there’s no reason any other bank couldn’t offer that. Maybe the market for such services is just very small, or most traditional banks make more money by selling add on services (mortgages, say) based on a very tight relationship (vs revolut’s more temporary/limited usage model).

fpoling 8y ago
The core innovation is to make the app really polished and straightforward to use to cut the support costs. Traditional banks may not care about it enough as in the worst case they can direct the customer to a local office.
- incompatible 8y ago
  That applies equally to online-only banks (i.e., websites), which are hardly a new innovation.
tixocloud 8y ago
You're spot on. I'm in strategy and we monitor the challenger banks regularly. Very little money is earned from things like current accounts, which is what all these app-only banks. Money is to be made in loans, mortgages and credit cards. Despite all the great hype, they are still a tiny proportion of the number of customers that mainstream banks have. Great app, great user experience but would be interesting to see how profitable these challenger banks are.
- md_ 8y ago
  FWIW, revolut appears to be aimed st selling different (probably lower overhead) services. Their premium accounts offer higher withdrawal limits, but they also sell cellphone insurance, etc. Still, as a skeptic, I can’t shake the thought that they’re just building market share at low profitability based on VC overexuberance.

fpoling 8y ago

Few years ago I consulted a bank in Norway. It was hard to believe how many customers used infected browsers to connect to the website resulting in huge support cost. The app is much more secure especially on iPhone or modern androids with crypto enclave or what ever it is called. With that even if a customer installs malicious app and grant it a lot of permission, the bank app can still be unaffected.

incompatible 8y ago
My phone is about 5 years old and runs Android 4.2, I wouldn't trust it with anything financial.
- dingaling 8y ago
  And mine runs a 2018 build of LineageOS but the bank apps don't trust it because it is rooted. We're approaching a point of lockdown where Google and Apple win the war against general-purpose computing. I don't know what I'll do then, perhaps just keep a vanilla Android device in a drawer purely for running apps that I need? But I'd better keep it updated or else the apps may refuse to run. And with an app-only bank that's a scary scenario.
  - Semaphor 8y ago
    N26 works on rooted phones AND have a website (and I'd go through the trouble of switching banks again if they discontinued it), but for transfers you need the app.
gruez 8y ago
>The app is much more secure especially on iPhone or modern androids with crypto enclave or what ever it is called. With that even if a customer installs malicious app and grant it a lot of permission, the bank app can still be unaffected. "crypto enclave" isn't a silver bullet that magically prevents you from getting hacked. it might keep your signing keys from being divulged, but if the attacker has root access (or jailbroken), there's nothing preventing the attacker from getting the enclave to sign whatever request it wants. at the very least it can corrupt the legitimate app's memory to force it to make a transfer. the security comes from sandboxing, not secure element/enclave.

TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago

In Monzo's case they do have a limited website for emergency situations. I suspect it comes down to security and development effort. Modern mobile devices are secure and can be trusted somewhat for authentication, and focusing on a great app for two platforms might be the best use of development resources.

zimbatm 8y ago

N26 has a website as well. The N26 app look like it's a web view.