4 ms·

Do you have any actual constructive criticism to go along with your sweeping generalization?

by dentemple 8y ago

marsrover 8y ago
Yeah, companies should learn about negative work.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  What is "negative work" in this context? It's not a common term.
  - marsrover 8y ago
    http://wiki.c2.com/?NetNegativeProducingProgrammer http://wiki.c2.com/?NetNegativeProducingProgrammer
  - thrower123 8y ago
    It's pretty self-explanatory, no? People who produce net negative value. Not an uncommon thing, especially with untrained workers - the hope being that you can eat the inefficiency long enough that they learn and become producers.
sanderjd 8y ago
Rephrasing the parent's point in a way that I think is not inflammatory: "Anecdotally, the bootcamp graduates that didn't previously know how to code who I have worked with have provided net negative value - that is the productivity cost to the rest of the team has been higher than the value they have provided - and I think companies who hire them must not be aware of this possibility." This has not been my experience, but I don't think it is invalid for someone to point out that it has been theirs. Net negative work is definitely a real thing, it just isn't my experience that it is only or mostly a bootcamp graduate phenomenon. I think anyone early in their career is likely to provide net negative value (I sure did). Companies have to make an investment in the value entry level employees will eventually create for them. This isn't new or unique, it's the case for all entry level folks in all professions.
- wccrawford 8y ago
  It depends on the bootcamp. There's a local one at a decent university that turns out a ton of people with no real ability to program. It's not a very tough course, and so many people are able to get through it without actual aptitude by the end. On the other hand, I recently interviewed someone from an out-of-state bootcamp that was very impressive. They had been self-teaching for a while beforehand, but from the interview it was clear that they learned a lot more at the bootcamp than they had learned on their own. We have never considered hiring anyone from the local bootcamp. We are definitely considering the out-of-state person. In short, your views of coding bootcamps are going to depend on the quality of the bootcamp near you.
  - burfog 8y ago
    I feel that the market for programmer bootcamps is something like the market for used cars. As in that famous economics paper (the lemons and cherries one), bad bootcamps might get rid of good bootcamps due to costs and the buyer's inability to distinguish. Here, the "buyer" is both immediate (the student) and indirect (the potential employer). I think lots of people really want something like a BS+MS in computer science, minus the part that would be a generic liberal arts AA degree. Practical people do not wish to waste time and money on the political indoctrination courses. Two years of that stuff is 2.5% of a person's lifetime and the cost of a 3-bedroom house.
    - aerotwelve 8y ago
      I'm not a fan of this view of the liberal arts. To your concern of being "politically indoctrinated", part of the value of a liberal arts education is being exposed to ideas you might not agree with. If you don't agree with the opinions expressed in a class -- political or otherwise -- there is real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree, and then justifying yourself logically via argument. Honestly, I often found this type of work more intellectually satisfying than in the cases where I agreed with an author/classmate/professor. And this skill set is not purely academic; every one of us here likely utilizes it daily at our jobs. This kind of reasoning is necessary in software development all the time: - Why should I choose X language over Y for this project Z? - Why is my colleague wrong about the source of this bug? - How can I convince his boss that I'm right? (and so on..)

Do you have any actual constructive criticism to go along with your sweeping generalization?

marsrover 8y ago

Yeah, companies should learn about negative work.

crispyambulance 8y ago
What is "negative work" in this context? It's not a common term.
- marsrover 8y ago
  http://wiki.c2.com/?NetNegativeProducingProgrammer http://wiki.c2.com/?NetNegativeProducingProgrammer
- thrower123 8y ago
  It's pretty self-explanatory, no? People who produce net negative value. Not an uncommon thing, especially with untrained workers - the hope being that you can eat the inefficiency long enough that they learn and become producers.

sanderjd 8y ago

Rephrasing the parent's point in a way that I think is not inflammatory: "Anecdotally, the bootcamp graduates that didn't previously know how to code who I have worked with have provided net negative value - that is the productivity cost to the rest of the team has been higher than the value they have provided - and I think companies who hire them must not be aware of this possibility." This has not been my experience, but I don't think it is invalid for someone to point out that it has been theirs. Net negative work is definitely a real thing, it just isn't my experience that it is only or mostly a bootcamp graduate phenomenon. I think anyone early in their career is likely to provide net negative value (I sure did). Companies have to make an investment in the value entry level employees will eventually create for them. This isn't new or unique, it's the case for all entry level folks in all professions.

wccrawford 8y ago
It depends on the bootcamp. There's a local one at a decent university that turns out a ton of people with no real ability to program. It's not a very tough course, and so many people are able to get through it without actual aptitude by the end. On the other hand, I recently interviewed someone from an out-of-state bootcamp that was very impressive. They had been self-teaching for a while beforehand, but from the interview it was clear that they learned a lot more at the bootcamp than they had learned on their own. We have never considered hiring anyone from the local bootcamp. We are definitely considering the out-of-state person. In short, your views of coding bootcamps are going to depend on the quality of the bootcamp near you.
- burfog 8y ago
  I feel that the market for programmer bootcamps is something like the market for used cars. As in that famous economics paper (the lemons and cherries one), bad bootcamps might get rid of good bootcamps due to costs and the buyer's inability to distinguish. Here, the "buyer" is both immediate (the student) and indirect (the potential employer). I think lots of people really want something like a BS+MS in computer science, minus the part that would be a generic liberal arts AA degree. Practical people do not wish to waste time and money on the political indoctrination courses. Two years of that stuff is 2.5% of a person's lifetime and the cost of a 3-bedroom house.
  - aerotwelve 8y ago
    I'm not a fan of this view of the liberal arts. To your concern of being "politically indoctrinated", part of the value of a liberal arts education is being exposed to ideas you might not agree with. If you don't agree with the opinions expressed in a class -- political or otherwise -- there is real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree, and then justifying yourself logically via argument. Honestly, I often found this type of work more intellectually satisfying than in the cases where I agreed with an author/classmate/professor. And this skill set is not purely academic; every one of us here likely utilizes it daily at our jobs. This kind of reasoning is necessary in software development all the time: - Why should I choose X language over Y for this project Z? - Why is my colleague wrong about the source of this bug? - How can I convince his boss that I'm right? (and so on..)