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> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chu

> Rules made by 55 year old early risers that only need 6 hours of sleep a night who have become school officials are just cruel and unusual punishment to a chunk of teenagers out there. In a better world there could be a class action lawsuit to make this stop--but its still considered okay to promote "early to bed, early to rise" and flat-out discriminate against people with sleep disorders. tbh, i doubt the time that students are required to be at school has much to do with their ideal sleep schedules. only about a third of women are stay at home moms these days, so you can consider parents to fall into one of two groups: shift workers and 9-5 office workers. shifts can start/end at any time so they can't really be planned around at the level of an entire school system. so by default, the schedule gets planned with the assumption of both parents working 9-5s. if both parents have to be at work by 9:00, the kids need to be at school by 8:00, so the parents can drop them off or at least make sure they get on the bus. also, a lot of school districts only have enough buses to transport all the lower, middle, or high school students at once, so their arrivals must be staggered. given that school also serves the purpose of gov't sponsored day care, i'm not sure what they could really do better aside from granting tardiness allowances for students with bona-fide sleeping disorders.

closeparen 8y ago
If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.
- derefr 8y ago
  > A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. This tends to be how suburban elementary schools are, but high schools require more resources per school (for all the facilities for sports and enrichment programs), so there are fewer, larger high schools. Having one high school serve only a 1-2 mile area would only work out if you have a bunch of 100-story condos in the 1-2 mile area. Otherwise, where are all these kids even coming from? I grew up in a town of 50,000 people. The population density of it, according to Wikipedia, is 1,082/sq mi. The town has three high schools to serve its population, and they're all just about full. If it had more schools, though, then each school would have less than 200 students apiee. Where would the budget for these schools' facilities come from?
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Condo towers? The suburb I grew up in was all single family homes with 2-car garages, 6,600 people per square mile and 14,000 people total. We have one high school in the center with ~900 students. Walkable for all of them. There are two elementary schools around half that size with even smaller coverage areas. We were unambiguously a suburb. 1/6th that density would have been nightmarish sprawl. Berkeley, also mostly suburban, is 12,000 per square mile! That’s my point.
- thrower123 8y ago
  Rural school districts might serve a 20-30 mile radius. You have to drive or ride the bus.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Only about 20% of the population is rural.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  > If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. i mean, according to the general sentiment of HN at least, there is something horrifically wrong with urban planning in the US. in the meantime, the schools need to settle on a "least terrible" schedule.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    You don’t need to ban cars, build dense multifamily buildings, dig subways, live close to a central business district, etc. to be in a position where kids can walk to school. That’s still perfectly compatible with suburbia.
- st26 8y ago
  something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning Ok, agreed. Now what? But seriously, this is the state of affairs for much of the country.
stormking 8y ago
In Europe, school began starting earlier and earlier on the request of teachers, who wanted the afternoon free for more lucrative side-gigs in the early eighteen-hundreds.
arkh 8y ago
> given that school also serves the purpose of gov't sponsored day care, i'm not sure what they could really do better aside from granting tardiness allowances for students with bona-fide sleeping disorders. Remote school. Lot of things could be learned and done from home. Then you can stagger your buses from 11am to noon for those who require communal food then group activities (art, sports etc.).
- leetcrew 8y ago
  sure but, like i said in the part of my post that you quoted, school is also daycare. most parents don't want to have to think about wtf their kids are doing in the house until 11am or noon. maybe they're wrong and should take a more hands-off approach, but kids don't vote and they don't pay (much) tax. the system needs to cater to the needs of the parents as much as those of the kids.

closeparen 8y ago

If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. My daily treks to middle and high school were parades of pedestrians, bikes, and kick scooters through the suburban streets.

derefr 8y ago
> A school should serve the houses 1-2 miles around. This tends to be how suburban elementary schools are, but high schools require more resources per school (for all the facilities for sports and enrichment programs), so there are fewer, larger high schools. Having one high school serve only a 1-2 mile area would only work out if you have a bunch of 100-story condos in the 1-2 mile area. Otherwise, where are all these kids even coming from? I grew up in a town of 50,000 people. The population density of it, according to Wikipedia, is 1,082/sq mi. The town has three high schools to serve its population, and they're all just about full. If it had more schools, though, then each school would have less than 200 students apiee. Where would the budget for these schools' facilities come from?
- closeparen 8y ago
  Condo towers? The suburb I grew up in was all single family homes with 2-car garages, 6,600 people per square mile and 14,000 people total. We have one high school in the center with ~900 students. Walkable for all of them. There are two elementary schools around half that size with even smaller coverage areas. We were unambiguously a suburb. 1/6th that density would have been nightmarish sprawl. Berkeley, also mostly suburban, is 12,000 per square mile! That’s my point.
thrower123 8y ago
Rural school districts might serve a 20-30 mile radius. You have to drive or ride the bus.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Only about 20% of the population is rural.
leetcrew 8y ago
> If kids can’t get themselves to school by their teenage years, something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning. i mean, according to the general sentiment of HN at least, there is something horrifically wrong with urban planning in the US. in the meantime, the schools need to settle on a "least terrible" schedule.
- closeparen 8y ago
  You don’t need to ban cars, build dense multifamily buildings, dig subways, live close to a central business district, etc. to be in a position where kids can walk to school. That’s still perfectly compatible with suburbia.
st26 8y ago
something is horrifically wrong with your urban planning Ok, agreed. Now what? But seriously, this is the state of affairs for much of the country.

stormking 8y ago

In Europe, school began starting earlier and earlier on the request of teachers, who wanted the afternoon free for more lucrative side-gigs in the early eighteen-hundreds.

arkh 8y ago

> given that school also serves the purpose of gov't sponsored day care, i'm not sure what they could really do better aside from granting tardiness allowances for students with bona-fide sleeping disorders. Remote school. Lot of things could be learned and done from home. Then you can stagger your buses from 11am to noon for those who require communal food then group activities (art, sports etc.).

leetcrew 8y ago
sure but, like i said in the part of my post that you quoted, school is also daycare. most parents don't want to have to think about wtf their kids are doing in the house until 11am or noon. maybe they're wrong and should take a more hands-off approach, but kids don't vote and they don't pay (much) tax. the system needs to cater to the needs of the parents as much as those of the kids.