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Yep. “A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.” —- Alan Perlis. Quite an old quote, but the principle seems so

Yep. “A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing.” —- Alan Perlis. Quite an old quote, but the principle seems sound. I’d probably add a LISP and an APL-family thing as valuable alternative points of view.

danmg 8y ago
LISP/Scheme usually gets covered in pretty good detail in the standard "let's make an interpreter" required class. APL could be interesting, but the last time I checked everyone wanted real money for APL that you could run on modern hardware. Maybe some golfed Perl 5 could be used instead.
- dasmoth 8y ago
  APL could be interesting, but the last time I checked everyone wanted real money for APL that you could run on modern hardware. There are definitely some options today: There's a GNU APL implementation (https://www.gnu.org/software/apl/ https://www.gnu.org/software/apl/). And Dyalog APL has gratis licenses for personal and educational use (https://www.dyalog.com/prices-and-licences.htm#educational https://www.dyalog.com/prices-and-licences.htm#educational). J is available under the GPLv3 as well as commercial licenses (http://jsoftware.com/source.htm http://jsoftware.com/source.htm). There are options for getting gratis licenses of KDB+ for non-commercial use (https://kx.com/connect-with-us/licenses/ https://kx.com/connect-with-us/licenses/).
scarface74 8y ago
A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing With the average cost of college being as high as it is and more than likely the students will come out with a ton of debt, the languages worth knowing are those that will help them get a job and start paying back the student loan in 6 months.
- danmg 8y ago
  It's not vocational training. As long as you're taking non-bullshit upper level courses you will have to use one of "those languages that will help them get a job." Systems will have you doing C and ASM. AI will have you doing Python. Scientific computing will have you do Matlab, Fortran, Python and R. Software engineering will have you do Java. Computer Vision will have you do C++.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Since when was the idea of going to college to get a “vocation” a bad thing? It’s not like most parents and students are getting in thousands of debt to “expand their minds”. They are doing it for thier children to have upward mobility.
    - danmg 8y ago
      Outright selling a vocation isn't what four year colleges do. If that's all you want, do a certificate program at a community college. Nothing wrong with them. If you want to retool from doing oil changes to being a CNC Operator or writing Javascript it's a very good option. Vocational training in a four year program is a side-effect, not a feature.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        And you do a certificate program and not be as competitive as someone with a 4 year degree. Why is computer science special? Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. Do you think most people can afford to spend tens of thousands in college to be a theoretical “better citizen of the world”? What are the people who didn’t get an education that was going to help them get a job do?
        danmg 8y ago
        >Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. False. Employability is a side-effect of those as well. If you don't like that, don't get a four year degree. Many people don't and are successful. If you want to be forced to have a broad background of different areas in computer science, learn theory, and do many-many projects, get a four year CS degree. Don't want to be pigeonholed into doing the latest-greatest variation of Visual FoxPro for the rest of your life? Get a CS degree.
- dasmoth 8y ago
  The “ton of debt” thing isn’t true everywhere (although the UK seems to be pretty committed to that route now...). I’m not totally against the idea that people should consider the likely financial value of education when choosing between courses. On the other hand it’s concerning if debt funding of university-level education is pushing peoples’ time horizons to be as short as you propose.

danmg 8y ago

LISP/Scheme usually gets covered in pretty good detail in the standard "let's make an interpreter" required class. APL could be interesting, but the last time I checked everyone wanted real money for APL that you could run on modern hardware. Maybe some golfed Perl 5 could be used instead.

dasmoth 8y ago
APL could be interesting, but the last time I checked everyone wanted real money for APL that you could run on modern hardware. There are definitely some options today: There's a GNU APL implementation (https://www.gnu.org/software/apl/ https://www.gnu.org/software/apl/). And Dyalog APL has gratis licenses for personal and educational use (https://www.dyalog.com/prices-and-licences.htm#educational https://www.dyalog.com/prices-and-licences.htm#educational). J is available under the GPLv3 as well as commercial licenses (http://jsoftware.com/source.htm http://jsoftware.com/source.htm). There are options for getting gratis licenses of KDB+ for non-commercial use (https://kx.com/connect-with-us/licenses/ https://kx.com/connect-with-us/licenses/).

scarface74 8y ago

A language that doesn’t affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing With the average cost of college being as high as it is and more than likely the students will come out with a ton of debt, the languages worth knowing are those that will help them get a job and start paying back the student loan in 6 months.

danmg 8y ago
It's not vocational training. As long as you're taking non-bullshit upper level courses you will have to use one of "those languages that will help them get a job." Systems will have you doing C and ASM. AI will have you doing Python. Scientific computing will have you do Matlab, Fortran, Python and R. Software engineering will have you do Java. Computer Vision will have you do C++.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Since when was the idea of going to college to get a “vocation” a bad thing? It’s not like most parents and students are getting in thousands of debt to “expand their minds”. They are doing it for thier children to have upward mobility.
  - danmg 8y ago
    Outright selling a vocation isn't what four year colleges do. If that's all you want, do a certificate program at a community college. Nothing wrong with them. If you want to retool from doing oil changes to being a CNC Operator or writing Javascript it's a very good option. Vocational training in a four year program is a side-effect, not a feature.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      And you do a certificate program and not be as competitive as someone with a 4 year degree. Why is computer science special? Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. Do you think most people can afford to spend tens of thousands in college to be a theoretical “better citizen of the world”? What are the people who didn’t get an education that was going to help them get a job do?
      - danmg 8y ago
        >Most other degrees are meant to prepare you for a career. False. Employability is a side-effect of those as well. If you don't like that, don't get a four year degree. Many people don't and are successful. If you want to be forced to have a broad background of different areas in computer science, learn theory, and do many-many projects, get a four year CS degree. Don't want to be pigeonholed into doing the latest-greatest variation of Visual FoxPro for the rest of your life? Get a CS degree.
dasmoth 8y ago
The “ton of debt” thing isn’t true everywhere (although the UK seems to be pretty committed to that route now...). I’m not totally against the idea that people should consider the likely financial value of education when choosing between courses. On the other hand it’s concerning if debt funding of university-level education is pushing peoples’ time horizons to be as short as you propose.