7 ms·

I'm not sure this is true. Yes, adolescence is when childbearing ability and the associated hormonal incentives start, but where is this "sex must happen at nig

by majos 8y ago

I'm not sure this is true. Yes, adolescence is when childbearing ability and the associated hormonal incentives start, but where is this "sex must happen at night" component coming from? If anything, I would guess that's a modern phenomenon being retrofitted onto the past.

digitailor 8y ago
I'd say visibility, permission avoidance, the excitement, and I'm sure there's more. Just like now, why would it have changed? For what specific reasons? Obviously spring and summer would be easier. I don't think that's retrofitting; I think we're continuing it still and the lack of recognition of that is confusing me. I'm positive they figured out how to have sex in the day as well when possible. But nomadic daytime marching would reduce opportunity, and in a hunting culture it would be harder to separate a woman because of daily gender-disparate activities. In a predominantly gatherer culture, perhaps it was easier.
- foldr 8y ago
  You couldn't do much of anything at night with stone-age lighting technology. Sneaking around at night would be more likely to net you a tryst with a nearby tree branch or ditch than an exciting sexual encounter.
  - tokai 8y ago
    That's why the Moon has been a friend of lovers since dawn of time.
  - ianai 8y ago
    You’re really off about that. Our night vision is actually pretty good, especially if you’ve used it for every night of your life. Fire’s clearly been with us for long enough to be a factor, in addition. I’m against the hypothesis though, if only for the fact that energy levels peak shortly after waking up - “why we sleep” discusses this a little. That book also suggests the variety of sleep patterns exists for evolutionary reasons. Ie we are social creatures. Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who evers sleep cycle woke them up when ever.
    - foldr 8y ago
      >Our night vision is actually pretty good It isn't good enough to see what's going on when it's actually pitch black, which it is most of the time at night. > Fire Lighting a fire at night in the place where you're having sex seems like a pretty good way to get discovered. > Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who evers sleep cycle woke them up when ever. This is a just so story. If we all had the same sleep patterns, you could just as well point out that there would also be advantages to that arrangement.
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        > It isn't good enough to see what's going on when it's actually pitch black, which it is most of the time at night. It's pitch-black for city dwellers with eyes unadapted to darkness. Weather allowing, for most of the time you have moonlight providing good enough illumination to (carefully) navigate the outside.
      - ianai 8y ago
        Matthew Walker, PhD in his book "Why We Sleep" discussed sleep cycles and their variances from one person to the next. Specifically, during his discussion of circadian rhythm in chapter 2. From page 22: "As a social species, should we not all be synchronized and therefore awake at the same time to promote maximal human interactions? Perhaps not. As we'll discover later in this book, humans likely evolved to co-sleep as families or even whole tribes, not alone or as couples. Appreciating this evolutionary context, the benefits of such genetically programmed variation in sleep/wake timing preferences can be understood. The night owls in the group would not be going to sleep until one or two a.m., and not waking until nine or ten. [...] Consequently the group as a whole is only collectively vulnerable." He discussed varying sleep cycles across individuals. Specifically, he suggested society needs to be more inclusive of different sleep patterns and needs. Instead, society rewards people who naturally wake early in the morning at the cost of "night owls". All in the same area of the book. You're welcome to research and earn your own PhD in neurology and author your own book on sleep patterns, but I'll stick with Dr Walker's work.
  - lnanek2 8y ago
    >You couldn't do much of anything at night with stone-age lighting technology I grew up in upstate New York and could actually run 5 miles around the nearby lake in the woods any night, even moonless ones. You can see the silhouette of the trees against the stars and it isn't even really needed once you memorize the trail anyway. And that was just for exercise. I imagine horny teenagers would be even more hard working.
wmeredith 8y ago
It’s pure conjecture until the commenter posts some sources. Now I feel patronizing pointing it out, but you don’t have to stay up late to have sex. I think this is modern cultural norms being propped with pseudo science.
- randomdata 8y ago
  > but you don’t have to stay up late to have sex. That doesn't mean that having a 'late night' trait wasn't advantageous to mating. For example, when humans started pair bonding, infidelity may have been more common among those who could sneak out under the cover a darkness while their partner was asleep, spreading that trait further than those who remained monogamous. It is easy to think of many possible reasons why a late night trait could have been advantageous in spreading that trait further than those who naturally followed a more daytime rhythm during teenage years. Or it could just be random chance. Either way, it's fun to discuss. We don't have to dismiss all fun discussion because it may be conjecture. It is only the comments section of HN, not a respected scientific publication. Time and place.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    Also, when your jobs are a) finding berries and hunting mammoths and b) having sex, it is not implausible that doing a) during the day and b) during the night gives you more reproductive success than vice versa. It is fun speculation, but still, OP's self-assured "this is so trivial" tone was not called for.
- artpepper2 8y ago
  I mean, my impression from reading 19th century novels is that people used to just slip into a convenient glen or wooded area, it wasn't that hard before the industrial era.
picsao 8y ago
Eh, when the rest of society sleeps who you promised to wait because nobody wants to pay screw you money.

by majos 8y ago

digitailor 8y ago

I'd say visibility, permission avoidance, the excitement, and I'm sure there's more. Just like now, why would it have changed? For what specific reasons? Obviously spring and summer would be easier. I don't think that's retrofitting; I think we're continuing it still and the lack of recognition of that is confusing me. I'm positive they figured out how to have sex in the day as well when possible. But nomadic daytime marching would reduce opportunity, and in a hunting culture it would be harder to separate a woman because of daily gender-disparate activities. In a predominantly gatherer culture, perhaps it was easier.

foldr 8y ago
You couldn't do much of anything at night with stone-age lighting technology. Sneaking around at night would be more likely to net you a tryst with a nearby tree branch or ditch than an exciting sexual encounter.
- tokai 8y ago
  That's why the Moon has been a friend of lovers since dawn of time.
- ianai 8y ago
  You’re really off about that. Our night vision is actually pretty good, especially if you’ve used it for every night of your life. Fire’s clearly been with us for long enough to be a factor, in addition. I’m against the hypothesis though, if only for the fact that energy levels peak shortly after waking up - “why we sleep” discusses this a little. That book also suggests the variety of sleep patterns exists for evolutionary reasons. Ie we are social creatures. Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who evers sleep cycle woke them up when ever.
  - foldr 8y ago
    >Our night vision is actually pretty good It isn't good enough to see what's going on when it's actually pitch black, which it is most of the time at night. > Fire Lighting a fire at night in the place where you're having sex seems like a pretty good way to get discovered. > Having a multitude of waking/restful cycles in a group kept our ancestors protected with a nearly round the clock group of protectors - who evers sleep cycle woke them up when ever. This is a just so story. If we all had the same sleep patterns, you could just as well point out that there would also be advantages to that arrangement.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      > It isn't good enough to see what's going on when it's actually pitch black, which it is most of the time at night. It's pitch-black for city dwellers with eyes unadapted to darkness. Weather allowing, for most of the time you have moonlight providing good enough illumination to (carefully) navigate the outside.
    - ianai 8y ago
      Matthew Walker, PhD in his book "Why We Sleep" discussed sleep cycles and their variances from one person to the next. Specifically, during his discussion of circadian rhythm in chapter 2. From page 22: "As a social species, should we not all be synchronized and therefore awake at the same time to promote maximal human interactions? Perhaps not. As we'll discover later in this book, humans likely evolved to co-sleep as families or even whole tribes, not alone or as couples. Appreciating this evolutionary context, the benefits of such genetically programmed variation in sleep/wake timing preferences can be understood. The night owls in the group would not be going to sleep until one or two a.m., and not waking until nine or ten. [...] Consequently the group as a whole is only collectively vulnerable." He discussed varying sleep cycles across individuals. Specifically, he suggested society needs to be more inclusive of different sleep patterns and needs. Instead, society rewards people who naturally wake early in the morning at the cost of "night owls". All in the same area of the book. You're welcome to research and earn your own PhD in neurology and author your own book on sleep patterns, but I'll stick with Dr Walker's work.
- lnanek2 8y ago
  >You couldn't do much of anything at night with stone-age lighting technology I grew up in upstate New York and could actually run 5 miles around the nearby lake in the woods any night, even moonless ones. You can see the silhouette of the trees against the stars and it isn't even really needed once you memorize the trail anyway. And that was just for exercise. I imagine horny teenagers would be even more hard working.

wmeredith 8y ago

It’s pure conjecture until the commenter posts some sources. Now I feel patronizing pointing it out, but you don’t have to stay up late to have sex. I think this is modern cultural norms being propped with pseudo science.

randomdata 8y ago
> but you don’t have to stay up late to have sex. That doesn't mean that having a 'late night' trait wasn't advantageous to mating. For example, when humans started pair bonding, infidelity may have been more common among those who could sneak out under the cover a darkness while their partner was asleep, spreading that trait further than those who remained monogamous. It is easy to think of many possible reasons why a late night trait could have been advantageous in spreading that trait further than those who naturally followed a more daytime rhythm during teenage years. Or it could just be random chance. Either way, it's fun to discuss. We don't have to dismiss all fun discussion because it may be conjecture. It is only the comments section of HN, not a respected scientific publication. Time and place.
- FabHK 8y ago
  Also, when your jobs are a) finding berries and hunting mammoths and b) having sex, it is not implausible that doing a) during the day and b) during the night gives you more reproductive success than vice versa. It is fun speculation, but still, OP's self-assured "this is so trivial" tone was not called for.
artpepper2 8y ago
I mean, my impression from reading 19th century novels is that people used to just slip into a convenient glen or wooded area, it wasn't that hard before the industrial era.

picsao 8y ago

Eh, when the rest of society sleeps who you promised to wait because nobody wants to pay screw you money.