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School's purpose is to introduce kids to things they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to learn. Coming from a poor, working class family, an apprenticeship-dri

by fiblye 8y ago

School's purpose is to introduce kids to things they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to learn. Coming from a poor, working class family, an apprenticeship-driven society like those of centuries ago would've resulted in me being trapped doing back-breaking labor and having no chance to escape. But I got a chance to study tech and other languages, got interested in things my family could never understand, and moved to another country to pursue what made me happy. I think offering a choice of apprenticeships would be good, but discouraging schooling in any way in favor of them would lead back to cycles of poverty and and end to the upward movement we've seen in the past century with the introduction of widespread public education.

shawn 8y ago
Meanwhile in Ameriburger, the kids tear each other to shreds. It sounds like the educational opportunities you got were what I spent years fantasizing about, wondering if there was anything better than going from mostly-dead teacher to mostly-dead teacher and forced to memorize pointless geographical facts in exchange for ... nothing at all, as far as I could tell.
- fiblye 8y ago
  I went to a school in America at a school where fights happened at least weekly. I still took advantage of what I was offered.
  - shawn 8y ago
    Yes, an environment where prisoners fight other prisoners sounds much preferable to learning a trade. Anyway, the mods have deemed "thou shalt only post five comments every three hours," so... See you tomorrow. Also the right teacher can make all the difference. Telling victims "Shut up and deal with it" isn't too productive, though it's the usual advice. EDIT: Since I can't reply, I'll just post it here. You'd be surprised. Economic activity is the only reason we don't resort to violence on a daily basis. Giving kids something to do other than posture might go a long way. Woo, replying via edit is fun. I wonder how long I can troll the HN mods before all my comments drop to the bottom automatically again. After all, when no justification is given and your emails are ignored, why obey arbitrary rules or put in effort toward being a good community member? EDIT2: Hmm, if I implied manual labor, I didn't mean to. A programming apprenticeship would have been amazing, and most trades are becoming knowledge-based anyway. Even a mechanic is less manual labor and more creative diagnostic.
    - fiblye 8y ago
      I really don't think sending kids off to learn a trade is going to change America's problem of violence. That's a deep-rooted American cultural problem and a big reason why I left (having been a victim of crime several times).
    - madeofpalk 8y ago
      This is a false dichotomy - the only options arent "have gang land fights in all our schools" or "commit everyone to manual labor apprenticeships". If we're considering big changes to the education system, why isn't a safe learning environment on the cards?
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I went to high school in America and I learned things. At any rate, why would teenagers be less cruel in the workplace?
Shacklz 8y ago
While I agree to your general sentiment, there are countries where apprenticeship systems work fairly well - Switzerland (full disclosure, I'm Swiss) is in my opinion one of those examples. At the age of around 14, you can choose to either proceed further with school or to get an apprenticeship. About 20% stay in school, 80% go the apprenticeship route. You still have usually two days of school during apprenticeship (with about 50-50 general education and education with focus on the kind of job you have chosen), and plenty of options to switch back to routes for higher education at any time.

by fiblye 8y ago

shawn 8y ago

Meanwhile in Ameriburger, the kids tear each other to shreds. It sounds like the educational opportunities you got were what I spent years fantasizing about, wondering if there was anything better than going from mostly-dead teacher to mostly-dead teacher and forced to memorize pointless geographical facts in exchange for ... nothing at all, as far as I could tell.

fiblye 8y ago
I went to a school in America at a school where fights happened at least weekly. I still took advantage of what I was offered.
- shawn 8y ago
  Yes, an environment where prisoners fight other prisoners sounds much preferable to learning a trade. Anyway, the mods have deemed "thou shalt only post five comments every three hours," so... See you tomorrow. Also the right teacher can make all the difference. Telling victims "Shut up and deal with it" isn't too productive, though it's the usual advice. EDIT: Since I can't reply, I'll just post it here. You'd be surprised. Economic activity is the only reason we don't resort to violence on a daily basis. Giving kids something to do other than posture might go a long way. Woo, replying via edit is fun. I wonder how long I can troll the HN mods before all my comments drop to the bottom automatically again. After all, when no justification is given and your emails are ignored, why obey arbitrary rules or put in effort toward being a good community member? EDIT2: Hmm, if I implied manual labor, I didn't mean to. A programming apprenticeship would have been amazing, and most trades are becoming knowledge-based anyway. Even a mechanic is less manual labor and more creative diagnostic.
  - fiblye 8y ago
    I really don't think sending kids off to learn a trade is going to change America's problem of violence. That's a deep-rooted American cultural problem and a big reason why I left (having been a victim of crime several times).
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    This is a false dichotomy - the only options arent "have gang land fights in all our schools" or "commit everyone to manual labor apprenticeships". If we're considering big changes to the education system, why isn't a safe learning environment on the cards?
emodendroket 8y ago
I went to high school in America and I learned things. At any rate, why would teenagers be less cruel in the workplace?

Shacklz 8y ago

While I agree to your general sentiment, there are countries where apprenticeship systems work fairly well - Switzerland (full disclosure, I'm Swiss) is in my opinion one of those examples. At the age of around 14, you can choose to either proceed further with school or to get an apprenticeship. About 20% stay in school, 80% go the apprenticeship route. You still have usually two days of school during apprenticeship (with about 50-50 general education and education with focus on the kind of job you have chosen), and plenty of options to switch back to routes for higher education at any time.