5 ms·

I'm wanting to express a slightly different view from most of the other comments: My face is not a secret. The photons that bounce off my face in all forward

by jMyles 8y ago

I'm wanting to express a slightly different view from most of the other comments: My face is not a secret. The photons that bounce off my face in all forward directions are not my property. Anybody is welcome to capture these photons if they come into that person's possession, whether it's a camera on the street of a facial recognition system in an airport. I'm very concerned about security and expression in our world, but I think we need to notice which things are naturally public (such as the likeness of our face) and which aren't.

walterbell 8y ago
Are photo databases naturally public, e.g. can anyone create a photo database and publish it like wikipedia? How about storing for private use against a public facial recognition cloud service? Do citizens have a right to be forgotten in such a database? Do different countries legal systems, precedent case law and constitutions have the same answers to these questions?
- rosser 8y ago
  > e.g. can anyone create a photo database and publish it like wikipedia? I believe there's a site somewhere on the internet that was originally premised on being "a book of faces"...
  - walterbell 8y ago
    They usually depend on users to upload photos.
- jMyles 8y ago
  These are good questions, and I only have an answer about which I'm confident to one of these: > Do citizens have a right to be forgotten in such a database? No. The idea of a "right to be forgotten" is an effort to manipulate the memories of other people, and that's not a right at all. I have a right to remember you. I have right to tell other people what I remember of you. This is essential for collective social and political action.
hw_penfold 8y ago
Coming from the perspective in security, the one that says biometrics are identity tokens or user names, but not authentication tokens or passwords, the concept you present is reasonable. However, let’s not simply dispose of the conversation, and leave it at that. There are quite a few more twists and turns right around the next bend... Which takes a cue from the idea of using tracking pixels, browser fingerprinting and cookies at all. If I visited your website three days ago, and explored a few link paths, would you be so kind as to show me the same website you show to everyone, instead of modifying your website in confusing ways, so as to either extract value from my actions or reduce them to limited options that act against my normal inclinations? So, with that, a deeper realization starts to develop, that simply “asking people to be nice” within the context of rational facts isn’t good enough. Yes, faces aren’t secret. But the unflinching long term memories of biometric recognition systems, operating with direct connection to systematic business rules as brutal as any cold-blooded algorithmic stock trader, looking at user names like ticker symbols, cannot simply be trusted to be nice.
- jMyles 8y ago
  Normally, when I really a comment, I just upvote. But in this case, I want to take the extra step of telling you directly that this is a truly brilliant comment - great writing and thinking here. I encourage you to expand this into a full blog post if you haven't already.
  - hw_penfold 8y ago
    Thank you for the kind words. I don’t intend to write articles under any particular name, since it’s too easy to become typecast, and have expectations develop around a name. I dump my thoughts out in the open, under arbitrary handles, when I think at least one person could use the sound of my voice.
mistersquid 8y ago
Ownership, property, and autonomy are important dimensions in policies that affect privacy, and the concern many people feel comes out of the tension between an individual's interest in restricting what structured data is created regarding themselves and US Customs and Border Patrol interest in generating such structured data. The Fourth Amendment does not restrict the generation of such structured data which, to my mind, is evidence that a Constitutional Amendment to protect US citizens from governmental surveillance should be written and ratified. EDIT: add missing direct object at end of 1st paragraph.
Ballantara 8y ago
Well, there's a tension between the right to collect/collate/record naturally public things and being concerned about how that info’s being used by others. Does it seem reasonable to have law enforcement go through your curbside trash for evidence when you're suspected of a crime? How about when a private investigator hired by a competitor in your industry looks for discarded documents? Or when an unfriendly journalist counting how many liquor bottles you've tossed? The trash is naturally public in all those cases. To play devil's advocate, how do you feel about this statement? My DNA is not a secret. The traces that shed from my body are not my property. Anybody is welcome to capture these traces if they come into that person's possession, whether it's fallen strand of hair or a DNA profiling system in an airport.
- jMyles 8y ago
  > My DNA is not a secret. The traces that shed from my body are not my property. Anybody is welcome to capture these traces if they come into that person's possession, whether it's fallen strand of hair or a DNA profiling system in an airport. Umm, yeah, that sounds totally reasonable to me. If I shed cells all over the earth, is every piece of matter that was ever part of me my property in perpetuity? Obviously not. When I excrete or shed or discard, the matter with which I have parted ways becomes in the public domain of nature and subject to whatever exercise the public creatures may desire, from consumption for nutrition to examination for insight. Sure man, follow me around and grab traces of my DNA is you want. It's none of my business.
PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
What about the photons that penetrate your clothes and then bounce off your skin? Am I free to capture those and do with them what I wish? What about applying the same to the photons bouncing off your child?

by jMyles 8y ago

walterbell 8y ago

Are photo databases naturally public, e.g. can anyone create a photo database and publish it like wikipedia? How about storing for private use against a public facial recognition cloud service? Do citizens have a right to be forgotten in such a database? Do different countries legal systems, precedent case law and constitutions have the same answers to these questions?

rosser 8y ago
> e.g. can anyone create a photo database and publish it like wikipedia? I believe there's a site somewhere on the internet that was originally premised on being "a book of faces"...
- walterbell 8y ago
  They usually depend on users to upload photos.
jMyles 8y ago
These are good questions, and I only have an answer about which I'm confident to one of these: > Do citizens have a right to be forgotten in such a database? No. The idea of a "right to be forgotten" is an effort to manipulate the memories of other people, and that's not a right at all. I have a right to remember you. I have right to tell other people what I remember of you. This is essential for collective social and political action.

hw_penfold 8y ago

Coming from the perspective in security, the one that says biometrics are identity tokens or user names, but not authentication tokens or passwords, the concept you present is reasonable. However, let’s not simply dispose of the conversation, and leave it at that. There are quite a few more twists and turns right around the next bend... Which takes a cue from the idea of using tracking pixels, browser fingerprinting and cookies at all. If I visited your website three days ago, and explored a few link paths, would you be so kind as to show me the same website you show to everyone, instead of modifying your website in confusing ways, so as to either extract value from my actions or reduce them to limited options that act against my normal inclinations? So, with that, a deeper realization starts to develop, that simply “asking people to be nice” within the context of rational facts isn’t good enough. Yes, faces aren’t secret. But the unflinching long term memories of biometric recognition systems, operating with direct connection to systematic business rules as brutal as any cold-blooded algorithmic stock trader, looking at user names like ticker symbols, cannot simply be trusted to be nice.

jMyles 8y ago
Normally, when I really a comment, I just upvote. But in this case, I want to take the extra step of telling you directly that this is a truly brilliant comment - great writing and thinking here. I encourage you to expand this into a full blog post if you haven't already.
- hw_penfold 8y ago
  Thank you for the kind words. I don’t intend to write articles under any particular name, since it’s too easy to become typecast, and have expectations develop around a name. I dump my thoughts out in the open, under arbitrary handles, when I think at least one person could use the sound of my voice.

mistersquid 8y ago

Ownership, property, and autonomy are important dimensions in policies that affect privacy, and the concern many people feel comes out of the tension between an individual's interest in restricting what structured data is created regarding themselves and US Customs and Border Patrol interest in generating such structured data. The Fourth Amendment does not restrict the generation of such structured data which, to my mind, is evidence that a Constitutional Amendment to protect US citizens from governmental surveillance should be written and ratified. EDIT: add missing direct object at end of 1st paragraph.

Ballantara 8y ago

Well, there's a tension between the right to collect/collate/record naturally public things and being concerned about how that info’s being used by others. Does it seem reasonable to have law enforcement go through your curbside trash for evidence when you're suspected of a crime? How about when a private investigator hired by a competitor in your industry looks for discarded documents? Or when an unfriendly journalist counting how many liquor bottles you've tossed? The trash is naturally public in all those cases. To play devil's advocate, how do you feel about this statement? My DNA is not a secret. The traces that shed from my body are not my property. Anybody is welcome to capture these traces if they come into that person's possession, whether it's fallen strand of hair or a DNA profiling system in an airport.

jMyles 8y ago
> My DNA is not a secret. The traces that shed from my body are not my property. Anybody is welcome to capture these traces if they come into that person's possession, whether it's fallen strand of hair or a DNA profiling system in an airport. Umm, yeah, that sounds totally reasonable to me. If I shed cells all over the earth, is every piece of matter that was ever part of me my property in perpetuity? Obviously not. When I excrete or shed or discard, the matter with which I have parted ways becomes in the public domain of nature and subject to whatever exercise the public creatures may desire, from consumption for nutrition to examination for insight. Sure man, follow me around and grab traces of my DNA is you want. It's none of my business.

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago

What about the photons that penetrate your clothes and then bounce off your skin? Am I free to capture those and do with them what I wish? What about applying the same to the photons bouncing off your child?