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This suggests that poverty rates do not consider the important factors required to accurately assess if someone is able to afford life. Which surprises me. Why

This suggests that poverty rates do not consider the important factors required to accurately assess if someone is able to afford life. Which surprises me. Why wouldn't cost of living be included in a term that by definition refers to the ability to cover the cost of living?

anothergoogler 8y ago
It's why you should be skeptical of the "X% of people globally have been lifted out of extreme poverty in the past X years" stories.
- jopsen 8y ago
  Don't confuse extreme poverty and poverty. Extreme poverty is defined as: "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services." Generally, I'm skeptical of adjusting for cost of living when you have housing prices as you do in the bay area. You still have options to move away.
  - sampleinajar 8y ago
    > You still have options to move away. True, but that is not a costless option.
    - pmiller2 8y ago
      This is the real reason CoL should be factored into the poverty line. If you’re barely (or not even) getting by, where do you get the money to move? Remember that many Americans can’t even meet a $500 emergency expense. Someone who can’t come up with $500 by any means in an emergency is not going to be able to afford to go anywhere.
      - shoo 8y ago
        Yep. & Aside from having cash to overcome unexpected expenses, making changes to reduce your cost of living or improve your financial situation often (not always) takes time, money, resources. E.g. moving house, finding a place to live with a kitchen to reduce food expenses, finding a better job... Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows - Leonard Cohen
  - luckydata 8y ago
    yeah, as long as you don't care leaving the place you grew up in, your family and friends, not to mention having to actually figure out another place to go, find a job, get a new place (including deposit). Easy.
    - barbecue_sauce 8y ago
      A lot of people don't seem to realize that the bay area is an actual place with a non-transient population, not just a venue for tech workers to establish themselves.
      - prolikewh0a 8y ago
        Hacker News has a serious problem with thinking that Software Engineers and high end IT workers are the only population deserving of nice things and good places to live. Just move away! It's so easy!
        grzm 8y ago
        > "Hacker News has a serious problem" You, too, are part of Hacker News. Do you include yourself in this description? Please refrain from grouping everyone (except you, I suspect) as subscribing to one particular thought stream or another. You end up falling for the very groupthink that you're decrying.
        prolikewh0a 8y ago
        I don't mean everyone of course, just a majority. It's a "pull up your bootstraps and become a principal engineer or you don't deserve anything, so just move to rural Montana" atmosphere. There absolutely is another side, but there's a serious epidemic of "I got mine, so screw you" here.
        sctb 8y ago
        If you feel that way, what do you think is the most effective way for you to move the needle? I suspect not like this.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  Some skepticism is never a bad idea. Fortunately, third world poverty is rapidly decreasing by whatever measure you choose to look at!
- manfredo 8y ago
  When measured in absolute terms (e.g. % of population that lacks access to sufficient food, electricity, education, running water, etc.) poverty has indeed been decreasing. For instance, I read an Economist article a while back that explained how during the 1960s and 70s a double digit percentage of the US population didn't have plumbing and similar figures for electricity. Today it's in the single digits, near zero.
BurningFrog 8y ago
There are probably dozens of reasonable ways to compute poverty rates, and you can pick whichever fits your preconceived notions best.
luckydata 8y ago
why would that surprise you?
- lucb1e 8y ago
  In Nigeria you obviously won't spend as much on rent and food as in Amsterdam when measured in the same currency. It doesn't make any sense not to include the cost of living to some degree. Making that assumption may or may not have been conscious, but questioning why it surprises someone doesn't help the discussion. They were asking why the cost of living is not included by default, not wondering what possessed them to have such a notion.
thrden 8y ago
I believe this is because poverty rate is determined on a national scale, whereas this factors in California's particularly high cost of living.

anothergoogler 8y ago

It's why you should be skeptical of the "X% of people globally have been lifted out of extreme poverty in the past X years" stories.

jopsen 8y ago
Don't confuse extreme poverty and poverty. Extreme poverty is defined as: "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services." Generally, I'm skeptical of adjusting for cost of living when you have housing prices as you do in the bay area. You still have options to move away.
- sampleinajar 8y ago
  > You still have options to move away. True, but that is not a costless option.
  - pmiller2 8y ago
    This is the real reason CoL should be factored into the poverty line. If you’re barely (or not even) getting by, where do you get the money to move? Remember that many Americans can’t even meet a $500 emergency expense. Someone who can’t come up with $500 by any means in an emergency is not going to be able to afford to go anywhere.
    - shoo 8y ago
      Yep. & Aside from having cash to overcome unexpected expenses, making changes to reduce your cost of living or improve your financial situation often (not always) takes time, money, resources. E.g. moving house, finding a place to live with a kitchen to reduce food expenses, finding a better job... Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows - Leonard Cohen
- luckydata 8y ago
  yeah, as long as you don't care leaving the place you grew up in, your family and friends, not to mention having to actually figure out another place to go, find a job, get a new place (including deposit). Easy.
  - barbecue_sauce 8y ago
    A lot of people don't seem to realize that the bay area is an actual place with a non-transient population, not just a venue for tech workers to establish themselves.
    - prolikewh0a 8y ago
      Hacker News has a serious problem with thinking that Software Engineers and high end IT workers are the only population deserving of nice things and good places to live. Just move away! It's so easy!
      - grzm 8y ago
        > "Hacker News has a serious problem" You, too, are part of Hacker News. Do you include yourself in this description? Please refrain from grouping everyone (except you, I suspect) as subscribing to one particular thought stream or another. You end up falling for the very groupthink that you're decrying.
        prolikewh0a 8y ago
        I don't mean everyone of course, just a majority. It's a "pull up your bootstraps and become a principal engineer or you don't deserve anything, so just move to rural Montana" atmosphere. There absolutely is another side, but there's a serious epidemic of "I got mine, so screw you" here.
        sctb 8y ago
        If you feel that way, what do you think is the most effective way for you to move the needle? I suspect not like this.
BurningFrog 8y ago
Some skepticism is never a bad idea. Fortunately, third world poverty is rapidly decreasing by whatever measure you choose to look at!
manfredo 8y ago
When measured in absolute terms (e.g. % of population that lacks access to sufficient food, electricity, education, running water, etc.) poverty has indeed been decreasing. For instance, I read an Economist article a while back that explained how during the 1960s and 70s a double digit percentage of the US population didn't have plumbing and similar figures for electricity. Today it's in the single digits, near zero.

BurningFrog 8y ago

There are probably dozens of reasonable ways to compute poverty rates, and you can pick whichever fits your preconceived notions best.

luckydata 8y ago

why would that surprise you?

lucb1e 8y ago
In Nigeria you obviously won't spend as much on rent and food as in Amsterdam when measured in the same currency. It doesn't make any sense not to include the cost of living to some degree. Making that assumption may or may not have been conscious, but questioning why it surprises someone doesn't help the discussion. They were asking why the cost of living is not included by default, not wondering what possessed them to have such a notion.

thrden 8y ago

I believe this is because poverty rate is determined on a national scale, whereas this factors in California's particularly high cost of living.