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This is a nonsensical interpretation of free speech. Censoring someone is not an exercise in the censorers free speech. Free speech is a negative right, meaning

This is a nonsensical interpretation of free speech. Censoring someone is not an exercise in the censorers free speech. Free speech is a negative right, meaning for it to exist others must not stop you from speaking. In your argument, whoever has power would just censor whatever they don't like and claim they're exercising their free speech. You're literally arguing that censorship is free speech. Straight out of a totalitarian play book.

dvtrn 8y ago
whoever has power would just censor whatever they don't like and claim they're exercising their free speech. Have you ever heard someone claim "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences"? [1] Seems like an increasingly popular mechanism to publicly litigate the affair in public, muzzle someone from the comparative out-group while insulating themselves from all consequences one might faces themselves from their own petard. I'll admit there's probably some merit to it-if you applied enough context and nuance to it. Problem is the types of people I observe online deploying this conceit very rarely do so in good faith and rarer still express any willingness to appreciate context or nuance. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/01/10/when-satire-cuts-both-ways/freedom-of-speech-not-freedom-from-consequences https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/01/10/when-satire...
- AlexB138 8y ago
  Indeed. As you say, there is merit to the argument. Social censure is often the appropriate response to repugnant ideas. I wouldn't invite an extremist to a party, for instance, but I wouldn't, and shouldn't, seek to ban them from speaking in public. And again, as you said, these argument are almost always used in bad faith. There is a breed of political extremism, popular in our industry, that is very against free speech and they have turned these bits of tortured logic into memes (in the cultural sense). The problem I personally have with it is the two-faced misrepresentation. Attempting to avoid outright saying they don't believe in free-speech, while at the same time advocating censoring any speech that doesn't conform to their ideas. While there's still an argument to be made against it, I at least respect the logical consistency of those saying "A private platform can censor political speech their leaders disagree with if they want to".
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    You can believe in free speech while advocating for moderation. There has been many attempts over the past few years to turn the free-speech argument into one against moderation, because in order to moderate a platform it necessitates censoring opinions. A lot of these arguments remind me a lot of the days when I used to play Garry's Mod. Where people claim admin abuse, censorship etc for being banned or told to go away as a result of ruining the game for other people.
    - dvtrn 8y ago
      You can believe in free speech while advocating for moderation. Absolutely. Yet it feels lately though the loudest voices that are getting the most attention are the ones pushing for the most...(searches for his words carefully)...aggrandizing forms of responding to disagreeable speech, and, when called on it-retreat back to very supercilious, academically-loaded terminology and tactics for why you're wrong and they're right. Then there's those people out there saying we need to be punching Nazi's but I aint touching that one with a ten-foot pole. because in order to moderate a platform it necessitates censoring opinions. This though, I'm not so sure about. I've never been fond of the trend of de-platforming disagreeable viewpoints or speech that aren't directly advocating and instructing 'imminent lawless action' as a certain high court puts it.
    - AlexB138 8y ago
      Agreed, and if I came off as arguing otherwise I misspoke. What you can't be is for free speech and for "moderation" of only speech you disagree with, which is simply bias censorship and what is often happening.
      - fzeroracer 8y ago
        The flaw with that is moderators and companies have to make a determination for speech they disagree with. Not all sites ban people in the same way for violent threats, and similarly all sites view inflammatory or derogatory speech in different ways. At some point in the equation there will be a value judgment made in terms of what breaks the rules. People banned by that moment will cite censorship and demand to be heard (see: the various subreddits banned by Reddit) while people wanting that content removed will celebrate. Making the argument into one purely about censorship ends up removing the nuance and reasoning for why someone was banned, which is why when people talk about conservative voices being banned by twitter, they often ignore the damage and harm Alex Jones for example has been responsible for to many families involved in school shootings or the various conspiracies he peddles.
esoterica 8y ago
Censoring someone on your private property is absolutely an exercise of your free speech. If someone plants a political sign on my lawn without my consent, I have the right to remove it because I have the free speech right to decide what political messages get broadcast from my personal property. The counterfactual notion you are suggesting, where everyone has the right to plant lawn signs on my property without my consent, is a violation of my free speech rights, not an enshrinement of theirs. > Free speech is a negative right, meaning for it to exist others must not stop you from speaking. Free speech exists when no one can stop you speaking on a platform that you own (servers, printing presses), or whose owners consent to publish your speech. You don't have a free speech right to compel third parties to use their platforms for your own speech.

dvtrn 8y ago

whoever has power would just censor whatever they don't like and claim they're exercising their free speech. Have you ever heard someone claim "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences"? [1] Seems like an increasingly popular mechanism to publicly litigate the affair in public, muzzle someone from the comparative out-group while insulating themselves from all consequences one might faces themselves from their own petard. I'll admit there's probably some merit to it-if you applied enough context and nuance to it. Problem is the types of people I observe online deploying this conceit very rarely do so in good faith and rarer still express any willingness to appreciate context or nuance. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/01/10/when-satire-cuts-both-ways/freedom-of-speech-not-freedom-from-consequences https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/01/10/when-satire...

AlexB138 8y ago
Indeed. As you say, there is merit to the argument. Social censure is often the appropriate response to repugnant ideas. I wouldn't invite an extremist to a party, for instance, but I wouldn't, and shouldn't, seek to ban them from speaking in public. And again, as you said, these argument are almost always used in bad faith. There is a breed of political extremism, popular in our industry, that is very against free speech and they have turned these bits of tortured logic into memes (in the cultural sense). The problem I personally have with it is the two-faced misrepresentation. Attempting to avoid outright saying they don't believe in free-speech, while at the same time advocating censoring any speech that doesn't conform to their ideas. While there's still an argument to be made against it, I at least respect the logical consistency of those saying "A private platform can censor political speech their leaders disagree with if they want to".
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  You can believe in free speech while advocating for moderation. There has been many attempts over the past few years to turn the free-speech argument into one against moderation, because in order to moderate a platform it necessitates censoring opinions. A lot of these arguments remind me a lot of the days when I used to play Garry's Mod. Where people claim admin abuse, censorship etc for being banned or told to go away as a result of ruining the game for other people.
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    You can believe in free speech while advocating for moderation. Absolutely. Yet it feels lately though the loudest voices that are getting the most attention are the ones pushing for the most...(searches for his words carefully)...aggrandizing forms of responding to disagreeable speech, and, when called on it-retreat back to very supercilious, academically-loaded terminology and tactics for why you're wrong and they're right. Then there's those people out there saying we need to be punching Nazi's but I aint touching that one with a ten-foot pole. because in order to moderate a platform it necessitates censoring opinions. This though, I'm not so sure about. I've never been fond of the trend of de-platforming disagreeable viewpoints or speech that aren't directly advocating and instructing 'imminent lawless action' as a certain high court puts it.
  - AlexB138 8y ago
    Agreed, and if I came off as arguing otherwise I misspoke. What you can't be is for free speech and for "moderation" of only speech you disagree with, which is simply bias censorship and what is often happening.
    - fzeroracer 8y ago
      The flaw with that is moderators and companies have to make a determination for speech they disagree with. Not all sites ban people in the same way for violent threats, and similarly all sites view inflammatory or derogatory speech in different ways. At some point in the equation there will be a value judgment made in terms of what breaks the rules. People banned by that moment will cite censorship and demand to be heard (see: the various subreddits banned by Reddit) while people wanting that content removed will celebrate. Making the argument into one purely about censorship ends up removing the nuance and reasoning for why someone was banned, which is why when people talk about conservative voices being banned by twitter, they often ignore the damage and harm Alex Jones for example has been responsible for to many families involved in school shootings or the various conspiracies he peddles.

esoterica 8y ago

Censoring someone on your private property is absolutely an exercise of your free speech. If someone plants a political sign on my lawn without my consent, I have the right to remove it because I have the free speech right to decide what political messages get broadcast from my personal property. The counterfactual notion you are suggesting, where everyone has the right to plant lawn signs on my property without my consent, is a violation of my free speech rights, not an enshrinement of theirs. > Free speech is a negative right, meaning for it to exist others must not stop you from speaking. Free speech exists when no one can stop you speaking on a platform that you own (servers, printing presses), or whose owners consent to publish your speech. You don't have a free speech right to compel third parties to use their platforms for your own speech.