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My friend makes a living writing these kinds of papers, primarily for Chinese students in Australian universities. He’s brilliant and can write on any subject

My friend makes a living writing these kinds of papers, primarily for Chinese students in Australian universities. He’s brilliant and can write on any subject (often the students provide notes / data, so it’s more about writing than topic knowledge). What annoys me is that this is rampant, and universities know it (or they’re intentionally being naive). But rather than crack down on those who are paying course fees, plus paying someone else to do their work. It would be nice if they put some effort into finding those who are actually writing all these papers and enabling them. Make them tutors, professors, ‘student assistants’, what ever. Some people will always cheat, who cares. In the end they cheat themselves, and it’s up to companies to screen people to ensure they actually have the capabilities they require. Rather than spend on removing the cheaters, spend on enabling the honest. Or even better, transfer directly from the cheaters to the honest, which is effectively what happens, but in the shadows. But for my friend, who is a perfect match for academia, this is his funding model. I hope one day he can be credited with all the papers he’s actually written.

beerlord 8y ago
Studying at University in Australia as an international student is not about the education, its about the immigration pathway it enables. Australia has something like 600,000 international students, second only to the USA, because all international students are immediately given a work visa, and then can permanently migrate to the country fairly easily at the end of the degree. Once you have PR you can access welfare and medicare, and can bring your whole family over eventually.
- wodenokoto 8y ago
  Is this being downvoted because it is factually inaccurate? I think it's an interesting point.
- danieltillett 8y ago
  Yep the whole thing is a total scam. My local Coles (Australian supermarket) is 100% staffed by overseas people who did a degree (mostly accounting from my informal questioning) here in Australia and who got PR via this degree.
  - wp381640 8y ago
    It isn't a scam if it is working exactly as intended It's a backdoor way into Australia that not many Australians know about and nobody rocks the boat on because everybody knows the country needs the migrants and investment. Ditto with the investment visas. Pretty crazy when at the same time everybody loses their minds over boats with a few hundred people on them
    - danieltillett 8y ago
      Australia does not need more migrants. Our entire economy is a Ponzi scheme based around immigration driving ever higher house prices. The more the major parties ignore this issue the more power it gives to those on the political extremes. The issue with the boats is it would not be a few hundred people for very long as the Europeans have found out over the last few years.
      - woah 8y ago
        Maybe you need to build more houses? This kind of denial of reality and xenophobia is rampant in SF as well.
        danieltillett 8y ago
        We re building masses of houses. The problem is not the building of houses, but the not building of all the infrustructure required to support all the new residents - roads, schools, hospitals, public transport, sewerage, electricity, water, etc. It is not xenophobia to want to see responsible development where development only occurs when it is supported by the infrustucture. If we can't afford to build the infrustucture then don't create the housing.
    - beerlord 8y ago
      Immigration levels are at all-time highs into Australia right now. The #1 source country is India, #2 China. Australia hit 25 million people 33 years earlier than planned, and annual migration levels are about 300,000. Immigration is achieving the following: - Lowers wages by increasing supply of labour, including creating a pool of workers willing to be employed at illegal rates - $10/hour. Many workers are willing to work for these rates, substantially below minimum wages, because it is more than they would earn in their home country, and because of promises from the employer that they will sponsor them for permanent residency. (Typically they will be paid correct minimum wage for 20 hours work, but in reality be staffed to work 30 to 50 hours). - Increasing demand on public services. More people means a greater need for shared services: health, education, public transport, roads, welfare. Considering that the majority (~80%) of new migrants are going to Melbourne and Sydney, two built-up mature megacities of 5 million people, adding more services to these cities is incredibly expensive (eg. a new rail line means tunnelling, land buy-back, extensive shutdowns of existing road and rail etc). - Increases consumption. This means increased consumer demand throughout the economy, simply based on the higher number of people. However, it also means consumption in an environmental sense: increased demand for water (which we need to desalinate, on the margins), increased demand for food and land (resulting in land clearance), increased CO2 emissions (Australia is a CO2 intensive country), increased pollution and waste. - Increased demand for land and housing. Young Australians can no longer buy a house in their own country, and home ownership is at historical lows. Huge amounts of houses are being converted to large apartments. So, if you're a land-owner and business-owner, happy days. You have greater demand for the things you own, and lower wages to pay out. If you're a tradesperson, you're also benefiting a lot from the intense housing and infrastructure construction activity. If you're an average Australian, you have lower wages, higher congestion on public services, increased taxes to pay for those services to be expanded, and no hope (in many cases) of buying your own house. There is also the added social friction of these two large groups of migrants moving to the country - Indian and mainland Chinese culture is dissimilar to Australian. Already we are seeing neighbourhoods stratified by ethnicity.
- sumedh 8y ago
  > and can bring your whole family over eventually. You have to pay 100K AUD for bringing your parents.
wonthegame 8y ago
They're not cheating just themselves. The impact of cheating is way more widespread than that. Often if one person cheats off of another student - they both suffer the consequences, if caught. Regardless of the other student(s) being aware someone cheated off of them. If you're doing group work and one person decides to plagiarize the entire group could be in serious trouble with the institution. It goes further too. It undermines the integrity of the school. Lets say that cheater gets by as you've suggested - now they're in the workforce and their boss realizes they're not very good. This doesn't reflect well on where they obtained their credentials. Worst is that they took a spot at a university that could have been given to a student that wanted to learn. You should also evaluate your friendship with this person. You want them to get credit but it annoys you with how rampant it is. I wouldn't associate with someone that was doing this on an ongoing basis. I'll bring up another reason why this is bad - your friend is writing papers while lacking the technical background of that topic. Sure he has notes and can research but this is not enough. There is a reason why reading webMD and self-diagnosing is not a completely creditable route. Sure your friend might be right, but they also could be wrong AND misguiding people that come across his papers.
- RileyJames 8y ago
  In Australia at least, no spot was “taken”. As most of the cheaters are overseas full paying students, and there are near an unlimited number of those places available. (They cost big $$$, as other comments have stated, it’s a track to residency) But my point is more that, universities could look at the ‘problem’ and contain it internally rather than the current outside model. University students require some income to survive. Some students are not capable of completing the work required (or don’t want to). Some students are MORE than capable of completing their degree, on top of others. So pair them up. One on one tutoring, paring students who can’t with those that can. Then at least the students doing all the work get paid and recognised for their capabilities. Those that want a piece of paper can have it. Without this my friend (and other gifted students) end up working some mindless job for minimal pay to get through university. Who does that serve? If anything it takes an unskilled position away from the unskilled.
  - 8y ago
danieltillett 8y ago
As a former academic yes the universities know this is happening and apply great internal pressure to ensure it continues so the gravy train keeps going. It is a very bad idea for your career to try to do something about this by identifying the cheats. The hard sciences are pretty immune to it at the undergraduate level (we have exams), but it is totally rampant in the economics/commerce/arts facilities. Where the hard sciences have issues is at the postgraduate level where you are expected to ensure all your overseas students graduate even if they can't write in English and know next to nothing about the topic. After you have been through an incoherent thesis draft for the fourth time you know it is going to be quicker to just write it yourself.
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  All models are broken. But if you model most organizations with perpetual boards, as universities do, as partnerships run for the benefit of senior administrators and in the case of universities a handful of powerful faculty you’ll find it’s a pretty good fit.
- choonway 8y ago
  How did they get in the first place? You mean they managed to cheat their GRE as well?
  - danieltillett 8y ago
    Do you mean the postgraduate science students? That is a good question, but I can say of science Ph.D students if you come with a scholarship from your home country and can fog a mirror then the Australian universities will accept you. I should add that some of the best Ph.D students I have worked with were overseas students. It is not that all overseas students are bad, just that the bottom 25% are not capable of doing a Ph.D and yet we still give them a degree.
  - csa 8y ago
    Yes. There is a very healthy market for every major standardized test (GRE, GMAT, etc.) as well as most (all?) of the major English proficiency tests. Every security measure I have heard of for western testing within the PRC can be bribed around, and it’s so commonplace that it barely warrants discussion (“of course it happens [eyeroll]”. I have heard of a few US schools doing on-campus retests for English proficiency, but mismatches are simply met with required ESL courses (paid non-credit, of course). I have not heard of other on-campus testing, and I’m not sure anyone wants it since these students usually pay full tuition.
yesenadam 8y ago
So you don't think this is bad in any way? That your friend is behaving very unethically? That cheating is fine: Some people will always cheat, who cares. I'd rather the next doctor/surgeon I need didn't get someone else to write their uni work, thanks very much. Apart from that I don't want anything to do with anyone that unethical. It's sociopathic. In the end they cheat themselves You're most concerned about how their cheating affects the cheater?! my friend, who is a perfect match for academia I can't tell if you loathe both academia and your friend's ethics, or neither. Neither, it seems to me. Amazing. Did you cheat too? If not, why not? Or..It's OK because a lot of people do it?
somebadguy 8y ago
Your friend is a cunt and so are you. Pitiful loser thinking he’s edgy
GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 8y ago
It is very much the universities job to screen these people. They put out a credential that says a person learned such and such. If they do not learn anything, then that credential becomes worthless and the universities role is finished.

beerlord 8y ago

Studying at University in Australia as an international student is not about the education, its about the immigration pathway it enables. Australia has something like 600,000 international students, second only to the USA, because all international students are immediately given a work visa, and then can permanently migrate to the country fairly easily at the end of the degree. Once you have PR you can access welfare and medicare, and can bring your whole family over eventually.

wodenokoto 8y ago
Is this being downvoted because it is factually inaccurate? I think it's an interesting point.
danieltillett 8y ago
Yep the whole thing is a total scam. My local Coles (Australian supermarket) is 100% staffed by overseas people who did a degree (mostly accounting from my informal questioning) here in Australia and who got PR via this degree.
- wp381640 8y ago
  It isn't a scam if it is working exactly as intended It's a backdoor way into Australia that not many Australians know about and nobody rocks the boat on because everybody knows the country needs the migrants and investment. Ditto with the investment visas. Pretty crazy when at the same time everybody loses their minds over boats with a few hundred people on them
  - danieltillett 8y ago
    Australia does not need more migrants. Our entire economy is a Ponzi scheme based around immigration driving ever higher house prices. The more the major parties ignore this issue the more power it gives to those on the political extremes. The issue with the boats is it would not be a few hundred people for very long as the Europeans have found out over the last few years.
    - woah 8y ago
      Maybe you need to build more houses? This kind of denial of reality and xenophobia is rampant in SF as well.
      - danieltillett 8y ago
        We re building masses of houses. The problem is not the building of houses, but the not building of all the infrustructure required to support all the new residents - roads, schools, hospitals, public transport, sewerage, electricity, water, etc. It is not xenophobia to want to see responsible development where development only occurs when it is supported by the infrustucture. If we can't afford to build the infrustucture then don't create the housing.
  - beerlord 8y ago
    Immigration levels are at all-time highs into Australia right now. The #1 source country is India, #2 China. Australia hit 25 million people 33 years earlier than planned, and annual migration levels are about 300,000. Immigration is achieving the following: - Lowers wages by increasing supply of labour, including creating a pool of workers willing to be employed at illegal rates - $10/hour. Many workers are willing to work for these rates, substantially below minimum wages, because it is more than they would earn in their home country, and because of promises from the employer that they will sponsor them for permanent residency. (Typically they will be paid correct minimum wage for 20 hours work, but in reality be staffed to work 30 to 50 hours). - Increasing demand on public services. More people means a greater need for shared services: health, education, public transport, roads, welfare. Considering that the majority (~80%) of new migrants are going to Melbourne and Sydney, two built-up mature megacities of 5 million people, adding more services to these cities is incredibly expensive (eg. a new rail line means tunnelling, land buy-back, extensive shutdowns of existing road and rail etc). - Increases consumption. This means increased consumer demand throughout the economy, simply based on the higher number of people. However, it also means consumption in an environmental sense: increased demand for water (which we need to desalinate, on the margins), increased demand for food and land (resulting in land clearance), increased CO2 emissions (Australia is a CO2 intensive country), increased pollution and waste. - Increased demand for land and housing. Young Australians can no longer buy a house in their own country, and home ownership is at historical lows. Huge amounts of houses are being converted to large apartments. So, if you're a land-owner and business-owner, happy days. You have greater demand for the things you own, and lower wages to pay out. If you're a tradesperson, you're also benefiting a lot from the intense housing and infrastructure construction activity. If you're an average Australian, you have lower wages, higher congestion on public services, increased taxes to pay for those services to be expanded, and no hope (in many cases) of buying your own house. There is also the added social friction of these two large groups of migrants moving to the country - Indian and mainland Chinese culture is dissimilar to Australian. Already we are seeing neighbourhoods stratified by ethnicity.
sumedh 8y ago
> and can bring your whole family over eventually. You have to pay 100K AUD for bringing your parents.

wonthegame 8y ago

They're not cheating just themselves. The impact of cheating is way more widespread than that. Often if one person cheats off of another student - they both suffer the consequences, if caught. Regardless of the other student(s) being aware someone cheated off of them. If you're doing group work and one person decides to plagiarize the entire group could be in serious trouble with the institution. It goes further too. It undermines the integrity of the school. Lets say that cheater gets by as you've suggested - now they're in the workforce and their boss realizes they're not very good. This doesn't reflect well on where they obtained their credentials. Worst is that they took a spot at a university that could have been given to a student that wanted to learn. You should also evaluate your friendship with this person. You want them to get credit but it annoys you with how rampant it is. I wouldn't associate with someone that was doing this on an ongoing basis. I'll bring up another reason why this is bad - your friend is writing papers while lacking the technical background of that topic. Sure he has notes and can research but this is not enough. There is a reason why reading webMD and self-diagnosing is not a completely creditable route. Sure your friend might be right, but they also could be wrong AND misguiding people that come across his papers.

RileyJames 8y ago
In Australia at least, no spot was “taken”. As most of the cheaters are overseas full paying students, and there are near an unlimited number of those places available. (They cost big $$$, as other comments have stated, it’s a track to residency) But my point is more that, universities could look at the ‘problem’ and contain it internally rather than the current outside model. University students require some income to survive. Some students are not capable of completing the work required (or don’t want to). Some students are MORE than capable of completing their degree, on top of others. So pair them up. One on one tutoring, paring students who can’t with those that can. Then at least the students doing all the work get paid and recognised for their capabilities. Those that want a piece of paper can have it. Without this my friend (and other gifted students) end up working some mindless job for minimal pay to get through university. Who does that serve? If anything it takes an unskilled position away from the unskilled.
- 8y ago

danieltillett 8y ago

As a former academic yes the universities know this is happening and apply great internal pressure to ensure it continues so the gravy train keeps going. It is a very bad idea for your career to try to do something about this by identifying the cheats. The hard sciences are pretty immune to it at the undergraduate level (we have exams), but it is totally rampant in the economics/commerce/arts facilities. Where the hard sciences have issues is at the postgraduate level where you are expected to ensure all your overseas students graduate even if they can't write in English and know next to nothing about the topic. After you have been through an incoherent thesis draft for the fourth time you know it is going to be quicker to just write it yourself.

bradleyjg 8y ago
All models are broken. But if you model most organizations with perpetual boards, as universities do, as partnerships run for the benefit of senior administrators and in the case of universities a handful of powerful faculty you’ll find it’s a pretty good fit.
choonway 8y ago
How did they get in the first place? You mean they managed to cheat their GRE as well?
- danieltillett 8y ago
  Do you mean the postgraduate science students? That is a good question, but I can say of science Ph.D students if you come with a scholarship from your home country and can fog a mirror then the Australian universities will accept you. I should add that some of the best Ph.D students I have worked with were overseas students. It is not that all overseas students are bad, just that the bottom 25% are not capable of doing a Ph.D and yet we still give them a degree.
- csa 8y ago
  Yes. There is a very healthy market for every major standardized test (GRE, GMAT, etc.) as well as most (all?) of the major English proficiency tests. Every security measure I have heard of for western testing within the PRC can be bribed around, and it’s so commonplace that it barely warrants discussion (“of course it happens [eyeroll]”. I have heard of a few US schools doing on-campus retests for English proficiency, but mismatches are simply met with required ESL courses (paid non-credit, of course). I have not heard of other on-campus testing, and I’m not sure anyone wants it since these students usually pay full tuition.

yesenadam 8y ago

So you don't think this is bad in any way? That your friend is behaving very unethically? That cheating is fine: Some people will always cheat, who cares. I'd rather the next doctor/surgeon I need didn't get someone else to write their uni work, thanks very much. Apart from that I don't want anything to do with anyone that unethical. It's sociopathic. In the end they cheat themselves You're most concerned about how their cheating affects the cheater?! my friend, who is a perfect match for academia I can't tell if you loathe both academia and your friend's ethics, or neither. Neither, it seems to me. Amazing. Did you cheat too? If not, why not? Or..It's OK because a lot of people do it?

somebadguy 8y ago

Your friend is a cunt and so are you. Pitiful loser thinking he’s edgy

GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 8y ago

It is very much the universities job to screen these people. They put out a credential that says a person learned such and such. If they do not learn anything, then that credential becomes worthless and the universities role is finished.