4 ms·

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your clai

by ciguy 8y ago

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inefficient to outright useless depending on where you are. I've also lived in Germany, and while they do love their paperwork and forms you are more or less guaranteed a specific result if you comply with the process, and it happens within a determined time frame. In Italy you can do the same exact process 5 times and get 5 different responses, or simply no response at all as they will happily lose your paperwork over and over. In many cases officials ask for random documents that don't exist and are not listed anywhere as required, simply to make you leave and bother someone else. I've become convinced however that all of these issues above are actually caused at their core by nepotism, cronyism and corruption. The most incompetent and corrupt get promoted to the top, and the rest are trampled until they give up or leave. There's no future and no opportunity for bright young Italian people. Where I live businesses still pay protection money to the mafia, openly. Why would any young person want a part of that? This is going to get worse for Italy as young people, who would normally be the catalyst for progress and change, simply leave.

Xixi 8y ago
It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it is in Germany or Italy. [1] Payroll taxes go towards the Social Security budget, which covers health insurance, retirement pensions, unemployment insurance, etc. [2] Income taxes (and VAT) go towards the state budget, which covers debt interests payments, education, justice, police, military, etc.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
  > They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. Kinda beside the point, but that does not actually make sense. My home budget and car budget are different, but I collect them from the same source. I don't get a different job to pay for my car. Many countries pay for social security out of income taxes, or pay for general budget stuff out of payroll taxes. I don't know what the real reason behind payroll taxes is. Probably it's mostly historical, as opposed to something you would reimplement if you were doing it from scratch today. But it is most definitely not simply because those taxes go into a different budget.
- jcelerier 8y ago
  > They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately until next january (finally!)
- woodpanel 8y ago
  (fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 EUR) ------------------------- Net income: 53.700 EUR Add to that what is often called gross-gross-income: Hidden from your paycheck is that social security has to be paid by your employer as well (so in this case amounts to 113.080 EUR which makes for a combined rate of 53%) [3] [1] Hypothetical young graduate from Italy/Spain/France: Unmarried, no children and catholic [2] 100k is not the typical pay for freshly graduated-from-school devs in Germany, but an attainable income goal after some working years nonetheless [3] some exemptions in that employer-part, its a bit less than the employee-part
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mkio 8y ago
louwrentius 8y ago
Very interesting, it confirms what I suspected. A negative spiral caused by a fundamentally broken culture that Italy is unable to break away from. It's all about stuffing your pockets and those of your family. Because nobody can be trusted. You don't build for the future. You don't care about that now. It seems that there is a fundamental lack of trust amongst Italians. And if there's no trust, you can't build on each other and focus on the long-term. Because you have to spend tons of time watching your back and taking care of yourself. How will you fucking turn around such a culture?
- ciguy 8y ago
  I have no idea. Normally younger people could be a catalyst for change, but they are all leaving. I think the effects of this are going to reverberate in Italy for generations as they fall further and further behind.
  - ivrrimum 8y ago
    This is actually relevant for entire of Easter EU as well. Most of the college grads or even dropouts move to UK, Germany for work.
- x0rg 8y ago
  I can tell you my story: I tried for years to stay in Italy and work there (it's my home country). As a software engineer I had to work 70 hours per week with no way to get a decent job for a salary between 20-30k euros (gross). When I severely burned out, I found the strength to leave the country and found a completely different work culture in Germany. This to say: I'm not sure Italians will ever turn it around, still I sometimes think it would be nice to come back and try to change things, but it is incredibly hard given that most of the young people there either leave, they accept shitty jobs or have the same mentality of their parents.
  - Eug894 8y ago
    Take now... some hard-headed business man, who has no theories, but knows how to make money. Say to him: "Here is a little village; in ten years it will be a great city; in ten years the railroad will have taken the place of the stage coach, the electric light of the candle; it will abound with all the machinery and improvements that so enormously multiply the effective power of labor. Will in ten years, interest be any higher?" He will tell you, "No!" "Will the wages of the common labor be any higher...?" He will tell you, "No the wages of common labor will not be any higher..." "What, then, will be higher?" "Rent, the value of land. Go, get yourself a piece of ground, and hold possession." And if, under such circumstances, you take his advice, you need do nothing more. You may sit down and smoke your pipe; you may lie around like the lazzaroni of Naples or the leperos of Mexico; you may go up in a balloon or down a hole in the ground; and without doing one stroke of work, without adding one iota of wealth to the community, in ten years you will be rich! In the new city you may have a luxurious mansion, but among its public buildings will be an almshouse. I would add: "Or get some intellectual property everyone must buy." /s

by ciguy 8y ago

Xixi 8y ago

It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it is in Germany or Italy. [1] Payroll taxes go towards the Social Security budget, which covers health insurance, retirement pensions, unemployment insurance, etc. [2] Income taxes (and VAT) go towards the state budget, which covers debt interests payments, education, justice, police, military, etc.

asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
> They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. Kinda beside the point, but that does not actually make sense. My home budget and car budget are different, but I collect them from the same source. I don't get a different job to pay for my car. Many countries pay for social security out of income taxes, or pay for general budget stuff out of payroll taxes. I don't know what the real reason behind payroll taxes is. Probably it's mostly historical, as opposed to something you would reimplement if you were doing it from scratch today. But it is most definitely not simply because those taxes go into a different budget.
jcelerier 8y ago
> They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately until next january (finally!)
woodpanel 8y ago
(fictional, simplified) Example for a Software Engineer based in Germany [1]: Gross income: 100.000 EUR / year [2] ------------------------- TAXES - Income tax (28.600 EUR) - "solidarity premium" (2.300 EUR) - church tax (1.600 € - cumpolsory until you leave the curch) SOCIAL SECURITY (compulsory) - unemployed insurance (1.200 EUR) - pension insurance (7.300 EUR) - health insurance (4.500 EUR) - long term care (800 EUR) ------------------------- Net income: 53.700 EUR Add to that what is often called gross-gross-income: Hidden from your paycheck is that social security has to be paid by your employer as well (so in this case amounts to 113.080 EUR which makes for a combined rate of 53%) [3] [1] Hypothetical young graduate from Italy/Spain/France: Unmarried, no children and catholic [2] 100k is not the typical pay for freshly graduated-from-school devs in Germany, but an attainable income goal after some working years nonetheless [3] some exemptions in that employer-part, its a bit less than the employee-part
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mkio 8y ago

louwrentius 8y ago

Very interesting, it confirms what I suspected. A negative spiral caused by a fundamentally broken culture that Italy is unable to break away from. It's all about stuffing your pockets and those of your family. Because nobody can be trusted. You don't build for the future. You don't care about that now. It seems that there is a fundamental lack of trust amongst Italians. And if there's no trust, you can't build on each other and focus on the long-term. Because you have to spend tons of time watching your back and taking care of yourself. How will you fucking turn around such a culture?

ciguy 8y ago
I have no idea. Normally younger people could be a catalyst for change, but they are all leaving. I think the effects of this are going to reverberate in Italy for generations as they fall further and further behind.
- ivrrimum 8y ago
  This is actually relevant for entire of Easter EU as well. Most of the college grads or even dropouts move to UK, Germany for work.
x0rg 8y ago
I can tell you my story: I tried for years to stay in Italy and work there (it's my home country). As a software engineer I had to work 70 hours per week with no way to get a decent job for a salary between 20-30k euros (gross). When I severely burned out, I found the strength to leave the country and found a completely different work culture in Germany. This to say: I'm not sure Italians will ever turn it around, still I sometimes think it would be nice to come back and try to change things, but it is incredibly hard given that most of the young people there either leave, they accept shitty jobs or have the same mentality of their parents.
- Eug894 8y ago
  Take now... some hard-headed business man, who has no theories, but knows how to make money. Say to him: "Here is a little village; in ten years it will be a great city; in ten years the railroad will have taken the place of the stage coach, the electric light of the candle; it will abound with all the machinery and improvements that so enormously multiply the effective power of labor. Will in ten years, interest be any higher?" He will tell you, "No!" "Will the wages of the common labor be any higher...?" He will tell you, "No the wages of common labor will not be any higher..." "What, then, will be higher?" "Rent, the value of land. Go, get yourself a piece of ground, and hold possession." And if, under such circumstances, you take his advice, you need do nothing more. You may sit down and smoke your pipe; you may lie around like the lazzaroni of Naples or the leperos of Mexico; you may go up in a balloon or down a hole in the ground; and without doing one stroke of work, without adding one iota of wealth to the community, in ten years you will be rich! In the new city you may have a luxurious mansion, but among its public buildings will be an almshouse. I would add: "Or get some intellectual property everyone must buy." /s