5 ms·

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a compan

by ericd 8y ago

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice. But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing with that kind of BS. If they were able to get their houses in order and make running a business there simpler, I imagine that many people would be more willing to start them there. Until then, it's a nice place to vacation before returning somewhere else to get work done.

ciguy 8y ago
I also considered hiring people here. After looking into the regulations and dealing with the government in other areas I realized I'd need a full time lawyer just to deal with the bureaucracy while I ran the business. There's just absolutely no reason to participate in the economy here, it's too deeply dysfunctional.
Bayart 8y ago
From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.
- ericd 8y ago
  At least in the case of the French bureaucracy, it very much is the reason I'm not getting what I want done there done, and I don't think the Kafkaesque nightmare that that has been is my fault. Every interaction I've had with various US govt agencies has been a dream by comparison, especially the Federal ones, but even the terrible state ones like the DMV. At least with them the requirements to get the things you want are fairly straightforward and consistent.
- JPKab 8y ago
  Who do you mean by "their"? And which Americans have you observed? It's not a monolithic culture.
KSteffensen 8y ago
Come to Denmark. It's been rated in the top 5 world wide on the 'ease of doing business' since 2012 and ahead of the USA since 2015. [1] Pretty much all bureaucracy happens online and my experience as an individual, is that it's minimal. I've never tried running a business , so I can't say anything on the bureaucracy there. We don't have that nice Southern France climate, though. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index
- petre 8y ago
  Denmark has crazy high taxes. I know several cases of people moving to Switzerland and other EU countries to escape the tax burden.
  - KSteffensen 8y ago
    Tax rate is somewhere between 40% and 60% depending on your income and spending patterns, but consider that we also have free education up to and including PH.D level and free healthcare. Of course, everyone has their own take on whether that's good or bad. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSFfTG42Jl8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSFfTG42Jl8
    - badpun 8y ago
      Poland has a flat tax rate of ~19% (if you run a business or are self-employed - a lot of developers are self-employed here) and it also has free health care and universities, up to PhD level... You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these.
      - Eug894 8y ago
        You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these. Exactly. Poor Western Europeans are robbed by their corrupted governments, IMHO. In Ukraine programmers pay only 5% tax, when everyone else - around 40%. So, come to us! : )
petre 8y ago
The root of this problem is bureaucracy + nepotism/cronyism combined, as opposed to bureaucracy alone.
- oneplane 8y ago
  But that seems to be limited/worse/more when you get 'halfway' through France on the map, it's more abundant when you get in the mediterranean areas. Not sure why, but it's an observation; it's almost as if the concept of work replaced the actual merit of work.
  - petre 8y ago
    France is quite allright in this regard, it's other EU countries that are more worying: Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, not necessarily in this order.
    - oneplane 8y ago
      Yeah, it's not all of France, and the national policies make sense, but it seems that the closer you get to the Mediterranean sea, the more the quality and work-merit balance tapers off.

by ericd 8y ago

ciguy 8y ago

I also considered hiring people here. After looking into the regulations and dealing with the government in other areas I realized I'd need a full time lawyer just to deal with the bureaucracy while I ran the business. There's just absolutely no reason to participate in the economy here, it's too deeply dysfunctional.

Bayart 8y ago

From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.

ericd 8y ago
At least in the case of the French bureaucracy, it very much is the reason I'm not getting what I want done there done, and I don't think the Kafkaesque nightmare that that has been is my fault. Every interaction I've had with various US govt agencies has been a dream by comparison, especially the Federal ones, but even the terrible state ones like the DMV. At least with them the requirements to get the things you want are fairly straightforward and consistent.
JPKab 8y ago
Who do you mean by "their"? And which Americans have you observed? It's not a monolithic culture.

KSteffensen 8y ago

Come to Denmark. It's been rated in the top 5 world wide on the 'ease of doing business' since 2012 and ahead of the USA since 2015. [1] Pretty much all bureaucracy happens online and my experience as an individual, is that it's minimal. I've never tried running a business , so I can't say anything on the bureaucracy there. We don't have that nice Southern France climate, though. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index

petre 8y ago
Denmark has crazy high taxes. I know several cases of people moving to Switzerland and other EU countries to escape the tax burden.
- KSteffensen 8y ago
  Tax rate is somewhere between 40% and 60% depending on your income and spending patterns, but consider that we also have free education up to and including PH.D level and free healthcare. Of course, everyone has their own take on whether that's good or bad. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSFfTG42Jl8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSFfTG42Jl8
  - badpun 8y ago
    Poland has a flat tax rate of ~19% (if you run a business or are self-employed - a lot of developers are self-employed here) and it also has free health care and universities, up to PhD level... You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these.
    - Eug894 8y ago
      You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these. Exactly. Poor Western Europeans are robbed by their corrupted governments, IMHO. In Ukraine programmers pay only 5% tax, when everyone else - around 40%. So, come to us! : )

petre 8y ago

The root of this problem is bureaucracy + nepotism/cronyism combined, as opposed to bureaucracy alone.

oneplane 8y ago
But that seems to be limited/worse/more when you get 'halfway' through France on the map, it's more abundant when you get in the mediterranean areas. Not sure why, but it's an observation; it's almost as if the concept of work replaced the actual merit of work.
- petre 8y ago
  France is quite allright in this regard, it's other EU countries that are more worying: Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, not necessarily in this order.
  - oneplane 8y ago
    Yeah, it's not all of France, and the national policies make sense, but it seems that the closer you get to the Mediterranean sea, the more the quality and work-merit balance tapers off.