5 ms·

> Gosh,there is so much half assed redundancy in js world that no wonder that so many beginners feel lost. Beginners feel lost because the JavaScript world has

by aikah 8y ago

> Gosh,there is so much half assed redundancy in js world that no wonder that so many beginners feel lost. Beginners feel lost because the JavaScript world has learned nothing from Java's ant. These insane build/asset pipelines that take forever to run are the bane of the JS world. It's like nobody remembers you can just write a JavaScript,then link it to an HTML without 35 compilation steps.

paradite 8y ago
We are no longer just trying to toggle a modal or show a popup. The requirement for frontend has changed dramatically and now we need to handle entire UI flow, interactivity, data synchronization, and even some business logic like filtering and validations with JS, HTML and CSS. There's no web app for air traffic controller yet, but pretty much everything else has a web app with a huge set of feature and non-feature requirements.
- aikah 8y ago
  > We are no longer just trying to toggle a modal or show a popup. > The requirement for frontend has changed dramatically and now we need to handle entire UI flow, interactivity, data synchronization, and even some business logic like filtering and validations with JS, HTML and CSS. What does it have to do with using Babel/Webpack and what not? it hasn't. The DOM is plenty and enough to implement MVC on top of it without requiring 200 libraries from NPM. Developers have been writing complex GUI apps for more than 4 decades without the need for a specific framework, how did they manage to do so yet everybody needs some complex framework in the browser? no they don't. Most of these web apps are forms. Now I'm not saying don't use react and whatever pipeline you are using. But downloading node and all these stuff isn't what a beginner should be exposed to. Beginners should learn basic principles of front-end development which includes the DOM.
  - paradite 8y ago
    > Do you think an app like Photoshop or 3DSMax uses a react like framework on top of whatever C++ GUI they are using? Yes I think so. Why else would they require 1GB of space to install them and specific hardware to run them efficiently? As a matter of fact, they require rendering libraries from graphics card companies. The difference is that they use their own proprietary frameworks instead of open sourcing them. > How many apps can boast about being as complex on the web? most of these web apps are forms. Not a lot, but quite significant nontheless. For example google docs, office 365, Facebook, Amazon, and many cloud solutions for enterprise. I agree most of web apps out there are just fancy forms and don't really need any frameworks, but there are legitimate use cases for them. Edit for your updated comment: Yes, I fully agree that web developers should start from basics, not frameworks and libraries. Cheers.
    - aikah 8y ago
      > As a matter of fact, they require rendering libraries from graphics card companies. in order to render graphics. The DOM already gives you all that for free. > For example google docs, office 365, Facebook, Amazon, and many cloud solutions for enterprise Not even VSCode uses a specific framework, which demonstrate my point. Yes, they use Monaco editor for their text editor but this is a very specific library for a specific purpose, this isn't a generic view framework like react and co.
      - paradite 8y ago
        > Not even VSCode uses a specific framework, which demonstrate my point. Yes, they use Monaco editor for their text editor but this is a very specific library for a specific purpose, this isn't a generic view framework like react and co. I think your argument is a bit flawed here. They don't use a generic framework for VSCode not because they don't need a framework, but probably because a generic framework is not good enough for handle the complexity on their level that they need to invent their own framework. So, my point is: Simple app, fancy forms: No framework should be required, just use VanillaJS, jQuery, or d3.js. More complex apps that solves a generic problem (CRUD with heavy client side interactivity): Generic framework. Extremely complex and specialized apps: Write your own framework.
    - sam0x17 8y ago
      All of the above, you could implement in vanilla javascript and HTML 5 just fine. People are just getting crazy these days.
      - ng12 8y ago
        I can tell you've never actually tried doing that, especially not with a team of 4-5 developers and constantly changing requirements. If it doesn't sound incredibly painful your webapp isn't complicated enough to warrant a framework anyways.
        sam0x17 8y ago
  - BigJono 8y ago
    The infuriating thing about React is that, by itself, it has a very high power to complexity ratio. By far the best out of any of the big front-end tools. But for some reason the community absolutely insists on piling 10 tonnes of crap on top of it until it covers every use case under the sun and no single app is using more than 5% of the rubbish they pull in from NPM.
rhengles 8y ago
I agree we can do much simpler. That's why I'm building some conventions to load vue components asynchronally (with each part - html, js and css - separated). You can checkout it here: (example) https://unpkg.com/@arijs/vue-generator@0.1.5/outra/pagina/ https://unpkg.com/@arijs/vue-generator@0.1.5/outra/pagina/ github: https://github.com/arijs/VueGenerator https://github.com/arijs/VueGenerator I had to ship a fork of Vue because the Vue mantainers won't accept the necessary changes to make this work.

by aikah 8y ago

paradite 8y ago

We are no longer just trying to toggle a modal or show a popup. The requirement for frontend has changed dramatically and now we need to handle entire UI flow, interactivity, data synchronization, and even some business logic like filtering and validations with JS, HTML and CSS. There's no web app for air traffic controller yet, but pretty much everything else has a web app with a huge set of feature and non-feature requirements.

aikah 8y ago
> We are no longer just trying to toggle a modal or show a popup. > The requirement for frontend has changed dramatically and now we need to handle entire UI flow, interactivity, data synchronization, and even some business logic like filtering and validations with JS, HTML and CSS. What does it have to do with using Babel/Webpack and what not? it hasn't. The DOM is plenty and enough to implement MVC on top of it without requiring 200 libraries from NPM. Developers have been writing complex GUI apps for more than 4 decades without the need for a specific framework, how did they manage to do so yet everybody needs some complex framework in the browser? no they don't. Most of these web apps are forms. Now I'm not saying don't use react and whatever pipeline you are using. But downloading node and all these stuff isn't what a beginner should be exposed to. Beginners should learn basic principles of front-end development which includes the DOM.
- paradite 8y ago
  > Do you think an app like Photoshop or 3DSMax uses a react like framework on top of whatever C++ GUI they are using? Yes I think so. Why else would they require 1GB of space to install them and specific hardware to run them efficiently? As a matter of fact, they require rendering libraries from graphics card companies. The difference is that they use their own proprietary frameworks instead of open sourcing them. > How many apps can boast about being as complex on the web? most of these web apps are forms. Not a lot, but quite significant nontheless. For example google docs, office 365, Facebook, Amazon, and many cloud solutions for enterprise. I agree most of web apps out there are just fancy forms and don't really need any frameworks, but there are legitimate use cases for them. Edit for your updated comment: Yes, I fully agree that web developers should start from basics, not frameworks and libraries. Cheers.
  - aikah 8y ago
    > As a matter of fact, they require rendering libraries from graphics card companies. in order to render graphics. The DOM already gives you all that for free. > For example google docs, office 365, Facebook, Amazon, and many cloud solutions for enterprise Not even VSCode uses a specific framework, which demonstrate my point. Yes, they use Monaco editor for their text editor but this is a very specific library for a specific purpose, this isn't a generic view framework like react and co.
    - paradite 8y ago
      > Not even VSCode uses a specific framework, which demonstrate my point. Yes, they use Monaco editor for their text editor but this is a very specific library for a specific purpose, this isn't a generic view framework like react and co. I think your argument is a bit flawed here. They don't use a generic framework for VSCode not because they don't need a framework, but probably because a generic framework is not good enough for handle the complexity on their level that they need to invent their own framework. So, my point is: Simple app, fancy forms: No framework should be required, just use VanillaJS, jQuery, or d3.js. More complex apps that solves a generic problem (CRUD with heavy client side interactivity): Generic framework. Extremely complex and specialized apps: Write your own framework.
  - sam0x17 8y ago
    All of the above, you could implement in vanilla javascript and HTML 5 just fine. People are just getting crazy these days.
    - ng12 8y ago
      I can tell you've never actually tried doing that, especially not with a team of 4-5 developers and constantly changing requirements. If it doesn't sound incredibly painful your webapp isn't complicated enough to warrant a framework anyways.
      - sam0x17 8y ago
- BigJono 8y ago
  The infuriating thing about React is that, by itself, it has a very high power to complexity ratio. By far the best out of any of the big front-end tools. But for some reason the community absolutely insists on piling 10 tonnes of crap on top of it until it covers every use case under the sun and no single app is using more than 5% of the rubbish they pull in from NPM.

rhengles 8y ago

I agree we can do much simpler. That's why I'm building some conventions to load vue components asynchronally (with each part - html, js and css - separated). You can checkout it here: (example) https://unpkg.com/@arijs/vue-generator@0.1.5/outra/pagina/ https://unpkg.com/@arijs/vue-generator@0.1.5/outra/pagina/ github: https://github.com/arijs/VueGenerator https://github.com/arijs/VueGenerator I had to ship a fork of Vue because the Vue mantainers won't accept the necessary changes to make this work.