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I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany.

rleigh 8y ago
Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)
  - michaelt 8y ago
    America has accepted massive, permanent subsidies from high productivity states to low ones. It’s one country, after all. Do the rich countries of the EU have the same appetite?
    - mschuster91 8y ago
      > Do the rich countries of the EU have the same appetite? As a matter of fact, Germany and the other EU countries do massively finance the poorer EU countries (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_b...). Problem is corruption: EU funds too often get shunted sideways (e.g. for Hungary, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/how-hungarian-pms-supporters-profit-from-eu-backed-projects https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/how-hungarian-...).
      - laurencerowe 8y ago
        Those figures do not show massive inter-regional financing. All but 2 countries have net EU expenditures of +/- 250 Euro per person. Per capita spending by the EU is 215 Euro per person compared to federal government spending of $9,961 per person in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_... The EU budget is 1% of GDP while the US federal budget is 20% GDP, 60% of which goes on social security / medicare / safety net programs. US federal spending acts as a huge inter-regional stabilizer. Regional transfers must significantly increase within the Eurozone if the Euro is to avoid breaking up or immiserating huge numbers of citizens.
  - Kenji 8y ago
    > So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? Are you seriously comparing the USA to the EU? Are you retarded? The USA is way more homogenous than Europe. The USA barely has any history, it's such a young country! European history goes back many thousands of years, you can't just force incompatible cultures together.
  - whack 8y ago
    rleigh is making the same argument as people like Paul Krugman. It's a controversial topic for sure, but I think it's unfair to call it "short" https://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133112932/paul-krugman-the-economic-failure-of-the-euro https://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133112932/paul-krugman-the-ec...
    - ItsMe000001 8y ago
      > I think it's unfair to call it "short" I replied to a comment here, not to Krugman. This should be obvious?
- ciguy 8y ago
  Most of the beauricracies I've dealt with in Italy have nothing to do with the Euro or the EU. And yet they are horribly mis-managed and run by corrupt nespotic maniacs. It's a cultural problem, not a regulatory one. And thanks to brain drain the young people are leaving instead of affecting change.
  - rleigh 8y ago
    And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.
    - Anderkent 8y ago
      Well, introduction of open borders is also fairly recent, don't you think that might have more impact on the within-eu migration than shared currency?
      - rleigh 8y ago
        I'm sure that both are factors. However, it was fairly easy to work in different European countries before the EU or the EEC existed, it just needed some paperwork filling out, so I'm inclined to think this is a lesser factor. There was migration for work between western European countries such as UK/Germany/France/Italy for well over a century. It has certainly increased in recent decades, but it's not at all new. In contrast, the Euro affects entire nations, which can depress weaker economies as a result of it being tied to stronger economies like Germany. This affects every manufacturing and export business, with no way to become more competitive relative to stronger economies within the Euro zone. Wealth will continue to drain out to stronger economies. The currency itself is an insurmountable problem, it's not a level playing field, and there's no way to correct that without reverting to a freely floating national currency or political and monetary union. And the latter is not going to be acceptable to the public any time soon; the Euro zone is more likely to collapse before that ever happens. I'd also suggest that a lot of the migration out of Italy and Spain is a consequence of the Euro-induced economic collapse, not the primary cause. Though it certainly will have a reinforcing effect. I've met plenty of Italians who migrated to work in the UK and US over the last decade+, and for most it wasn't because migration to the UK or US was a life goal for economic or other reasons, it was because there were simply no opportunities or a future for them at home. They would have liked to stay if they could. Open borders would have made this choice easier, but that's an enabling factor, not the primary driver. The situation for these countries is increasingly desperate; they need to have a future for their own people.
- ben_w 8y ago
  British industry growth has become unstable rather than higher since the pound collapsed. British exports have mainly gone up because gold (which doesn’t come from the UK, it just happened to be stored there) is being moved out of the country in economically significant quantities. https://www.ft.com/content/0407854e-f9d0-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3b65 https://www.ft.com/content/0407854e-f9d0-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3... This isn’t to say the Euro is brilliant or not, I don’t have the knowledge necessary to argue that topic pro or con.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    The pound hasn't collapsed, that's why. Look at a graph of GBPUSD. The pound spent all of 2017 increasing in value, and you'll see that by the start of 2018 the pound had erased the entire drop that followed the EU referendum - it was back to the value it was at the start of 2016. The fluctuations since then have been within the same sort of range as is normal for such a currency: the fall since April is of about the same size as the falls in July 2011, Summer-Winter 2014 etc. The narrative that the UK economy or currency is collapsing is trivially disproven by simply looking at a graph. With respect to gold, the story you linked to says it's being moved by Chinese investors as a hedge against problems with their own currency. It's unrelated to the politics of the EU.
    - tigershark 8y ago
      Before looking at the numbers you need to understand what the numbers actually mean. The gbp value has indeed collapsed. Whoever is telling the contrary is plainly lying. The gbp eur fx before the Brexit was over 1.40, now it is 1.11. Obviously you look at the gbp usd graph that has nothing to do with the strength of the gbp because the major business partner of the UK is the EU, not the US, and by far. The gbp usd graph that you are using as a proof of your fantasies just highlights that the USD also lost value in the last two years. Can I please know where do you live? I live in UK and I can attest for sure to the GBP collapse and the economy that is growing at half the pace as before. I lost thousands of pounds already because of the Brexit.
      - 8y ago
- tigershark 8y ago
  British economy went from a growth of ~3% before the Brexit to half of that after the Brexit. Italy economy with the lira in the ‘90s was completely stagnant. Please avoid spreading misinformation passing your conjectures for facts.
  - growlist 8y ago
    Correlation does not imply causation.
ericd 8y ago
From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice. But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing with that kind of BS. If they were able to get their houses in order and make running a business there simpler, I imagine that many people would be more willing to start them there. Until then, it's a nice place to vacation before returning somewhere else to get work done.
- ciguy 8y ago
  I also considered hiring people here. After looking into the regulations and dealing with the government in other areas I realized I'd need a full time lawyer just to deal with the bureaucracy while I ran the business. There's just absolutely no reason to participate in the economy here, it's too deeply dysfunctional.
- Bayart 8y ago
  From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.
  - ericd 8y ago
    At least in the case of the French bureaucracy, it very much is the reason I'm not getting what I want done there done, and I don't think the Kafkaesque nightmare that that has been is my fault. Every interaction I've had with various US govt agencies has been a dream by comparison, especially the Federal ones, but even the terrible state ones like the DMV. At least with them the requirements to get the things you want are fairly straightforward and consistent.
  - JPKab 8y ago
    Who do you mean by "their"? And which Americans have you observed? It's not a monolithic culture.
- 8y ago
rukittenme 8y ago
He said "taxes are excessive" not "high" and "bureaucracy is excruciating" not "high". Both his statements and your statements can be true simultaneously. Taxes may be excessive but lower if the services received for the taxes are inferior or undesirable. Or if the tax is raised in regressive or arbitrary ways. Germany may have a large, effective bureaucracy while Spain may have a smaller, corrupt bureaucracy. This I believe is demonstrated by the "Corruption Perception Index". Welfare states really have nothing to do with how regimented society is.
- ciguy 8y ago
  Precisely. Value for your tax money is simply not there in Italy. You get either tolerable, or non-existent transport, healthcare and education depending on where you are. In the south it's usually non-existent. The root of the issue is nepotism and cronyism, which gives very little hope to young people who would normally be the catalyst for change and improvement. Instead of participating in a rigged system they can just leave now, and most do.
ciguy 8y ago
Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inefficient to outright useless depending on where you are. I've also lived in Germany, and while they do love their paperwork and forms you are more or less guaranteed a specific result if you comply with the process, and it happens within a determined time frame. In Italy you can do the same exact process 5 times and get 5 different responses, or simply no response at all as they will happily lose your paperwork over and over. In many cases officials ask for random documents that don't exist and are not listed anywhere as required, simply to make you leave and bother someone else. I've become convinced however that all of these issues above are actually caused at their core by nepotism, cronyism and corruption. The most incompetent and corrupt get promoted to the top, and the rest are trampled until they give up or leave. There's no future and no opportunity for bright young Italian people. Where I live businesses still pay protection money to the mafia, openly. Why would any young person want a part of that? This is going to get worse for Italy as young people, who would normally be the catalyst for progress and change, simply leave.
- Xixi 8y ago
  It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it is in Germany or Italy. [1] Payroll taxes go towards the Social Security budget, which covers health insurance, retirement pensions, unemployment insurance, etc. [2] Income taxes (and VAT) go towards the state budget, which covers debt interests payments, education, justice, police, military, etc.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
    > They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. Kinda beside the point, but that does not actually make sense. My home budget and car budget are different, but I collect them from the same source. I don't get a different job to pay for my car. Many countries pay for social security out of income taxes, or pay for general budget stuff out of payroll taxes. I don't know what the real reason behind payroll taxes is. Probably it's mostly historical, as opposed to something you would reimplement if you were doing it from scratch today. But it is most definitely not simply because those taxes go into a different budget.
dnautics 8y ago
> In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game? > I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany. Is that really fair? Those in poverty are less likely to be qualified to go to university, so you are essentially subsidizing the wealthy with policies like that.
- oneplane 8y ago
  Giving everyone the same access is fair. Those in poverty are only much less likely to be qualified in situations where education is commercialized/capitalized. Also, subsidizing is a rather dirty word to use for this case (we're talking about a general pool of money in a tax system, not your money with a serial number on it going to one specific place to be spent), as well as selecting 'the wealthy' as the ones who are to profit, since they most likely pay taxes that easily cover all the expenses an enrolled student would require. Using taxes in a manner that gives everyone the same benefit is seems like a reasonable thing, especially when compared to the places tax money seems to be spent to much (arms, military, open-loop energy systems, politics) or too little (i.e. too little for roads and bridges...). The main difference is getting value out of your taxes. Value can be direct or indirect (the impact of education on your family, neighbors, friends etc indirectly impacts you as well, this goes for infrastructure, healthcare etc. as well), but having very little value kind of misses the point of a taxation system in an organised society. Might as well live in a forest by yourself in such cases. (but people tend to migrate to a country with a better system instead)
- webkike 8y ago
  > Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game? I don't understand what you're saying here. Cutting social welfare is not a left wing position. Neither is avoiding to cut cronyism.
gaius 8y ago
In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. People generally don’t mind paying a premium in time or money if they feel what they get it worth it. Everyone knows this is true, witness people happily stand in line for hours to buy an expensive but desirable item or experience. In Germany and Sweden and a few other countries taxes are high but you can look around you and see that it goes on high quality public services and infrastructure. The bureaucracy is time consuming but you know when you finally fill in that form, something will actually happen. Countries where people complain about taxes and bureaucracy are countries where the tax money disappears into a Black hole and where paperwork is pointless.
- wsc981 8y ago
  Netherlands would be one of those countries that has high taxation and indeed has good infrastructure and still decent public services (though it's been getting worse). Still I decided I wanted to leave the country for many reasons, but in part because I feel I pay too much for what I receive. Now I live in Thailand with my girlfriend and while infrastructure is much worse and public services are of (much) lower quality than The Netherlands, yet here I will be able to make much more savings due to low (in my case pretty much non-existent except VAT) taxation. I think it's better for us to raise our daughter here because we'll be able to give her an easier life where she will not have to work very hard and can enjoy her life. I think it's easy to save at least 35k a year here (if not more) where in The Netherlands, due to high taxation and high cost of living I should be happy to save maybe 15k. I also think in the near future we'd have some property coupled with some other investments that will allow me to "retire" by 45 if not earlier. In The Netherlands I don't believe this would be possible either. I am 36 years old now by the way.
  - kaybe 8y ago
    What happens if you lose your job or fall ill?
    - wsc981 8y ago
      The key is good health insurance now, build up savings quickly and then if needed can use money from the savings for serious stuff not covered by health insurance. But the private hospitals are very nice indeed in Thailand and very affordable as well. A decent healthcare plan for me + girlfriend would cost us around 1200 EUR a year (total), while in The Netherlands it would be double that amount and we would just get basic healthcare (i.e.: not to be used for private hospitals). I do believe it's highly unlikely I will lose my job (mobile programmer) in the coming years. I believe there will be plenty of work for at least the next 10 years and probably much much longer. And as a freelancer I might be less affected by ageism.
angarg12 8y ago
I'm from Spain and I have lived in Germany and now UK. What surprises me from these numbers is that the share of Spaniards abroad isn't higher. My reason to leave was my career. In Spain most things work via connections and meritocracy hardly exists. I went from a salary below the median and a dead end job to a top paying job with unlimited growth potential. I love Spain as a holiday destination, but I will never go back to live there. I agree that the problem is way deeper and more culturally involved than tax rates and bureaucracy.
- growlist 8y ago
  UK is meritocratic to an extent, but just look at the people at the top: usually educated at elite institutions, and often with heritage that can be traced back to the Norman invasion in 1066!

rleigh 8y ago

Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)
- michaelt 8y ago
  America has accepted massive, permanent subsidies from high productivity states to low ones. It’s one country, after all. Do the rich countries of the EU have the same appetite?
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > Do the rich countries of the EU have the same appetite? As a matter of fact, Germany and the other EU countries do massively finance the poorer EU countries (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_budget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_b...). Problem is corruption: EU funds too often get shunted sideways (e.g. for Hungary, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/how-hungarian-pms-supporters-profit-from-eu-backed-projects https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/how-hungarian-...).
    - laurencerowe 8y ago
      Those figures do not show massive inter-regional financing. All but 2 countries have net EU expenditures of +/- 250 Euro per person. Per capita spending by the EU is 215 Euro per person compared to federal government spending of $9,961 per person in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_... The EU budget is 1% of GDP while the US federal budget is 20% GDP, 60% of which goes on social security / medicare / safety net programs. US federal spending acts as a huge inter-regional stabilizer. Regional transfers must significantly increase within the Eurozone if the Euro is to avoid breaking up or immiserating huge numbers of citizens.
- Kenji 8y ago
  > So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? Are you seriously comparing the USA to the EU? Are you retarded? The USA is way more homogenous than Europe. The USA barely has any history, it's such a young country! European history goes back many thousands of years, you can't just force incompatible cultures together.
- whack 8y ago
  rleigh is making the same argument as people like Paul Krugman. It's a controversial topic for sure, but I think it's unfair to call it "short" https://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133112932/paul-krugman-the-economic-failure-of-the-euro https://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133112932/paul-krugman-the-ec...
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    > I think it's unfair to call it "short" I replied to a comment here, not to Krugman. This should be obvious?
ciguy 8y ago
Most of the beauricracies I've dealt with in Italy have nothing to do with the Euro or the EU. And yet they are horribly mis-managed and run by corrupt nespotic maniacs. It's a cultural problem, not a regulatory one. And thanks to brain drain the young people are leaving instead of affecting change.
- rleigh 8y ago
  And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.
  - Anderkent 8y ago
    Well, introduction of open borders is also fairly recent, don't you think that might have more impact on the within-eu migration than shared currency?
    - rleigh 8y ago
      I'm sure that both are factors. However, it was fairly easy to work in different European countries before the EU or the EEC existed, it just needed some paperwork filling out, so I'm inclined to think this is a lesser factor. There was migration for work between western European countries such as UK/Germany/France/Italy for well over a century. It has certainly increased in recent decades, but it's not at all new. In contrast, the Euro affects entire nations, which can depress weaker economies as a result of it being tied to stronger economies like Germany. This affects every manufacturing and export business, with no way to become more competitive relative to stronger economies within the Euro zone. Wealth will continue to drain out to stronger economies. The currency itself is an insurmountable problem, it's not a level playing field, and there's no way to correct that without reverting to a freely floating national currency or political and monetary union. And the latter is not going to be acceptable to the public any time soon; the Euro zone is more likely to collapse before that ever happens. I'd also suggest that a lot of the migration out of Italy and Spain is a consequence of the Euro-induced economic collapse, not the primary cause. Though it certainly will have a reinforcing effect. I've met plenty of Italians who migrated to work in the UK and US over the last decade+, and for most it wasn't because migration to the UK or US was a life goal for economic or other reasons, it was because there were simply no opportunities or a future for them at home. They would have liked to stay if they could. Open borders would have made this choice easier, but that's an enabling factor, not the primary driver. The situation for these countries is increasingly desperate; they need to have a future for their own people.
ben_w 8y ago
British industry growth has become unstable rather than higher since the pound collapsed. British exports have mainly gone up because gold (which doesn’t come from the UK, it just happened to be stored there) is being moved out of the country in economically significant quantities. https://www.ft.com/content/0407854e-f9d0-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3b65 https://www.ft.com/content/0407854e-f9d0-11e6-9516-2d969e0d3... This isn’t to say the Euro is brilliant or not, I don’t have the knowledge necessary to argue that topic pro or con.
- repolfx 8y ago
  The pound hasn't collapsed, that's why. Look at a graph of GBPUSD. The pound spent all of 2017 increasing in value, and you'll see that by the start of 2018 the pound had erased the entire drop that followed the EU referendum - it was back to the value it was at the start of 2016. The fluctuations since then have been within the same sort of range as is normal for such a currency: the fall since April is of about the same size as the falls in July 2011, Summer-Winter 2014 etc. The narrative that the UK economy or currency is collapsing is trivially disproven by simply looking at a graph. With respect to gold, the story you linked to says it's being moved by Chinese investors as a hedge against problems with their own currency. It's unrelated to the politics of the EU.
  - tigershark 8y ago
    Before looking at the numbers you need to understand what the numbers actually mean. The gbp value has indeed collapsed. Whoever is telling the contrary is plainly lying. The gbp eur fx before the Brexit was over 1.40, now it is 1.11. Obviously you look at the gbp usd graph that has nothing to do with the strength of the gbp because the major business partner of the UK is the EU, not the US, and by far. The gbp usd graph that you are using as a proof of your fantasies just highlights that the USD also lost value in the last two years. Can I please know where do you live? I live in UK and I can attest for sure to the GBP collapse and the economy that is growing at half the pace as before. I lost thousands of pounds already because of the Brexit.
    - 8y ago
tigershark 8y ago
British economy went from a growth of ~3% before the Brexit to half of that after the Brexit. Italy economy with the lira in the ‘90s was completely stagnant. Please avoid spreading misinformation passing your conjectures for facts.
- growlist 8y ago
  Correlation does not imply causation.

ericd 8y ago

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice. But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing with that kind of BS. If they were able to get their houses in order and make running a business there simpler, I imagine that many people would be more willing to start them there. Until then, it's a nice place to vacation before returning somewhere else to get work done.

ciguy 8y ago
I also considered hiring people here. After looking into the regulations and dealing with the government in other areas I realized I'd need a full time lawyer just to deal with the bureaucracy while I ran the business. There's just absolutely no reason to participate in the economy here, it's too deeply dysfunctional.
Bayart 8y ago
From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.
- ericd 8y ago
  At least in the case of the French bureaucracy, it very much is the reason I'm not getting what I want done there done, and I don't think the Kafkaesque nightmare that that has been is my fault. Every interaction I've had with various US govt agencies has been a dream by comparison, especially the Federal ones, but even the terrible state ones like the DMV. At least with them the requirements to get the things you want are fairly straightforward and consistent.
- JPKab 8y ago
  Who do you mean by "their"? And which Americans have you observed? It's not a monolithic culture.
8y ago

rukittenme 8y ago

He said "taxes are excessive" not "high" and "bureaucracy is excruciating" not "high". Both his statements and your statements can be true simultaneously. Taxes may be excessive but lower if the services received for the taxes are inferior or undesirable. Or if the tax is raised in regressive or arbitrary ways. Germany may have a large, effective bureaucracy while Spain may have a smaller, corrupt bureaucracy. This I believe is demonstrated by the "Corruption Perception Index". Welfare states really have nothing to do with how regimented society is.

ciguy 8y ago
Precisely. Value for your tax money is simply not there in Italy. You get either tolerable, or non-existent transport, healthcare and education depending on where you are. In the south it's usually non-existent. The root of the issue is nepotism and cronyism, which gives very little hope to young people who would normally be the catalyst for change and improvement. Instead of participating in a rigged system they can just leave now, and most do.

ciguy 8y ago

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue. In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inefficient to outright useless depending on where you are. I've also lived in Germany, and while they do love their paperwork and forms you are more or less guaranteed a specific result if you comply with the process, and it happens within a determined time frame. In Italy you can do the same exact process 5 times and get 5 different responses, or simply no response at all as they will happily lose your paperwork over and over. In many cases officials ask for random documents that don't exist and are not listed anywhere as required, simply to make you leave and bother someone else. I've become convinced however that all of these issues above are actually caused at their core by nepotism, cronyism and corruption. The most incompetent and corrupt get promoted to the top, and the rest are trampled until they give up or leave. There's no future and no opportunity for bright young Italian people. Where I live businesses still pay protection money to the mafia, openly. Why would any young person want a part of that? This is going to get worse for Italy as young people, who would normally be the catalyst for progress and change, simply leave.

Xixi 8y ago
It can be hard to compare actual tax rates as you have to also account for all the payroll taxes. For instance in France for a Software Engineer you would expect about 40~45% payroll taxes [1], and you will still pay income taxes (somewhere between 20% and 40%) on what remains [2]. They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. I don't know how it is in Germany or Italy. [1] Payroll taxes go towards the Social Security budget, which covers health insurance, retirement pensions, unemployment insurance, etc. [2] Income taxes (and VAT) go towards the state budget, which covers debt interests payments, education, justice, police, military, etc.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
  > They go towards different budgets (Social Security and State), so it makes sense that they are collected separately. Kinda beside the point, but that does not actually make sense. My home budget and car budget are different, but I collect them from the same source. I don't get a different job to pay for my car. Many countries pay for social security out of income taxes, or pay for general budget stuff out of payroll taxes. I don't know what the real reason behind payroll taxes is. Probably it's mostly historical, as opposed to something you would reimplement if you were doing it from scratch today. But it is most definitely not simply because those taxes go into a different budget.

dnautics 8y ago

> In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game? > I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany. Is that really fair? Those in poverty are less likely to be qualified to go to university, so you are essentially subsidizing the wealthy with policies like that.

oneplane 8y ago
Giving everyone the same access is fair. Those in poverty are only much less likely to be qualified in situations where education is commercialized/capitalized. Also, subsidizing is a rather dirty word to use for this case (we're talking about a general pool of money in a tax system, not your money with a serial number on it going to one specific place to be spent), as well as selecting 'the wealthy' as the ones who are to profit, since they most likely pay taxes that easily cover all the expenses an enrolled student would require. Using taxes in a manner that gives everyone the same benefit is seems like a reasonable thing, especially when compared to the places tax money seems to be spent to much (arms, military, open-loop energy systems, politics) or too little (i.e. too little for roads and bridges...). The main difference is getting value out of your taxes. Value can be direct or indirect (the impact of education on your family, neighbors, friends etc indirectly impacts you as well, this goes for infrastructure, healthcare etc. as well), but having very little value kind of misses the point of a taxation system in an organised society. Might as well live in a forest by yourself in such cases. (but people tend to migrate to a country with a better system instead)
webkike 8y ago
> Isn't it arguable though that the politicians are choosing to cut social welfare instead of choosing to cut cronyism and political favors? In which case it's actually the left-wing which is abusing the economic crisis, using those in poverty as pawns in a bigger game? I don't understand what you're saying here. Cutting social welfare is not a left wing position. Neither is avoiding to cut cronyism.

gaius 8y ago

In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. People generally don’t mind paying a premium in time or money if they feel what they get it worth it. Everyone knows this is true, witness people happily stand in line for hours to buy an expensive but desirable item or experience. In Germany and Sweden and a few other countries taxes are high but you can look around you and see that it goes on high quality public services and infrastructure. The bureaucracy is time consuming but you know when you finally fill in that form, something will actually happen. Countries where people complain about taxes and bureaucracy are countries where the tax money disappears into a Black hole and where paperwork is pointless.

wsc981 8y ago
Netherlands would be one of those countries that has high taxation and indeed has good infrastructure and still decent public services (though it's been getting worse). Still I decided I wanted to leave the country for many reasons, but in part because I feel I pay too much for what I receive. Now I live in Thailand with my girlfriend and while infrastructure is much worse and public services are of (much) lower quality than The Netherlands, yet here I will be able to make much more savings due to low (in my case pretty much non-existent except VAT) taxation. I think it's better for us to raise our daughter here because we'll be able to give her an easier life where she will not have to work very hard and can enjoy her life. I think it's easy to save at least 35k a year here (if not more) where in The Netherlands, due to high taxation and high cost of living I should be happy to save maybe 15k. I also think in the near future we'd have some property coupled with some other investments that will allow me to "retire" by 45 if not earlier. In The Netherlands I don't believe this would be possible either. I am 36 years old now by the way.
- kaybe 8y ago
  What happens if you lose your job or fall ill?
  - wsc981 8y ago
    The key is good health insurance now, build up savings quickly and then if needed can use money from the savings for serious stuff not covered by health insurance. But the private hospitals are very nice indeed in Thailand and very affordable as well. A decent healthcare plan for me + girlfriend would cost us around 1200 EUR a year (total), while in The Netherlands it would be double that amount and we would just get basic healthcare (i.e.: not to be used for private hospitals). I do believe it's highly unlikely I will lose my job (mobile programmer) in the coming years. I believe there will be plenty of work for at least the next 10 years and probably much much longer. And as a freelancer I might be less affected by ageism.

angarg12 8y ago

I'm from Spain and I have lived in Germany and now UK. What surprises me from these numbers is that the share of Spaniards abroad isn't higher. My reason to leave was my career. In Spain most things work via connections and meritocracy hardly exists. I went from a salary below the median and a dead end job to a top paying job with unlimited growth potential. I love Spain as a holiday destination, but I will never go back to live there. I agree that the problem is way deeper and more culturally involved than tax rates and bureaucracy.

growlist 8y ago
UK is meritocratic to an extent, but just look at the people at the top: usually educated at elite institutions, and often with heritage that can be traced back to the Norman invasion in 1066!