20 ms·

Brain Drain Within the EU?

160 points by siberianbear 8y ago

siberianbear 8y ago
tl;dr: It looks like there no opportunity for Italian scientists and engineers: they're all moving to Germany and the UK.
- snaky 8y ago
  They will fix it European way. > Support from the European Union could come handy in helping Italian and Spanish entrepreneurs overcome the gap with more developed parts of Europe, both in terms of funding and networking opportunities. Indeed, as for the former, both nations are among the first beneficiaries, in the last two years, of the funds earmarked by the EU for innovation and technological research in the Horizon 2020 program. > Such instruments, however, while helpful, are not by any means perfect. “I think there is a lot of European money getting lost in the process between the people who is getting the grants and the entrepreneurs,” the vice president of the Spanish Startups Association, Carmen Bermejo, says. “The ones who know how to apply and get the European grants are sometimes not the same ones that know how to help the startups and deliver value. This is even worse if we speak about the European funds for regional cohesion, that depend a lot on personal contacts and relationships,” she adds. https://www.forbes.com/sites/federicoguerrini/2016/07/06/how-building-a-stronger-startup-ecosystem-could-help-tackle-youth-unemployment-in-italy-and-spain/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/federicoguerrini/2016/07/06/how...
  - borroka 8y ago
    The effect of these ERA (European Research Agency) initiatives is zero. EU likes to throw money at problems without following up; for an enlightening example one can look at the Marie Curie fellowship. Money thrown at researcher for 2 or 3 years of research in EU or outside of EU institutions with zero follow up at the end of the fellowship. As far as I know, the vast majority of MC fellows leave academia and research at the end of the fellowship.
    - kmlx 8y ago
      It's the same in other fields. Eastern European countries currently suffer from a plague of politicians and special interests that funnel EU funds straight to either their own personal bank accounts or to close friends and companies. [0] [1] [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/hungary-orban-balaton/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/hungary-... [1] https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites/antifraud/files/olaf_report_2017_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites/antifraud/files/olaf_r...
      - borroka 8y ago
        In the example I was describing above, the money goes to researchers (I was one of the recipients), but since there are no follow-ups, such as some support for researchers that finish the fellowship and are looking for jobs, the downstream effect of the Marie Curie actions is close to 0. You would think that a change of action would swiftly follow the analysis of data, especially after ~ 20 years of Marie Curie actions, but the EU Soviet-style bureaucracies are just interested in their survival and the appearance of effective action.
      - bobthechef 8y ago
        Or Western companies. For instance, whenever a country in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) defies the EU, the affiliated pro-federalist media outlets immediately start to claim how these countries are large beneficiaries of EU funds (read: ungrateful). The funny thing is that the economies of these countries are heavily colonized by Western companies and conglomerates that often siphon EU funds back into Western hands. Furthermore, the legal systems in those countries are still reeling from Soviet control and need a serious overhaul. Western companies gladly exploit loopholes and make corrupt deals with post-communist elites to, for example, get at funds or avoid paying enormous amounts of taxes. Certainly, CEE countries have improved a great deal since '89, but the West really doesn't appreciate how traumatic WWII was for these countries, how disruptive the Nazis and the Soviets were, how half a century of Soviet domination scarred them, and how much work needs to be done to undo the damage. It's little wonder Western elites worry when these countries try to address these issues. They (the Western elites) are the beneficiaries of these exploitative practices that gladly employ in what Piketty calls "foreign-owned countries".
village-idiot 8y ago
Random thought: the UK has the advantage of speaking English. First, that makes it easier for them to pull in other Europeans, since english is commonly the second language of most other Europeans. Second they can also pull in American and Canadian expats much easier than anyone else in Europe. Germany is more interesting to me. German is not exactly the worlds most common first or second language. So this is more evidence of their complete and utter domination within the eu.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  When I did my degree in the mid-90s it was already common to do a semester in Germany. My university had exchange programs with Fraunhofer for those doing graphics research.
- borroka 8y ago
  Assuming (wrongly, but that's ok at first approximation) that money spent on academic research is a fraction of GDP, and that there is a positive correlation between money spent on research and jobs in research, UK and Germany should come on top for number of scientists. Plus they have, apart from the French CNRS, the top Institutions for scientific research in Europe.
- egeozcan 8y ago
  Contrary to what most people believe, I see that native English speakers can learn German rather easily (with a pretty distinct accent, which I really like :)). Your point stands though, as they usually don't know this before they actually start learning, so they must have other reasons.
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    Totally irrelevant but perhaps amusing: In my American high school, I took German as a second language (yay Wisconsin). I then took Mandarin Chinese in college. Even in my fifth year, when a teacher asked me a question, I had a 50/50 chance of thinking of the answer in German first. It was utterly maddening. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to travel abroad or maintain that knowledge, so all I really remember is "ich spreche nür ein bischen deutch". That, and the day that my teacher asked me what "ich habe keine ahnung" meant, I didn't know. She had me ask another student... Imagine my frustration when the only answer was "I have no idea".
borroka 8y ago
The article is not clear; I did not look at the raw data, but the expectation of parity between population percent and percent of scientists/engineers is a hypothesis itself. It is well known that Italy produced far fewer people with advanced degree per capita than many other EU countries.
- borroka 8y ago
  Interesting downvote
jsnell 8y ago
I don't understand how these graphs show brain drain, there a bunch of other explanations. For example maybe a bigger proportion of Germans get an appropriate university degree than Italians. Or maybe the people getting an engineering degree in Italy can't get a job in that field, and end up working on something else but not emigrating. Or the difference comes from non-EU scientists/engineers preferentially moving to UK or Germany when immigrating to the EU. To show brain drain you really need to look at the migration flows, not a static snapshot of the current populations.
- ff_ 8y ago
  Italian engineer here. The brain drain is real and the graphs represent quite accurately what's happening to me and my peers. (It might be my bubble of course, but hey, now we have this legit-looking snapshot in the article)
  - ciguy 8y ago
    I'm American but living in Italy right now, and it's really sad talking to Uni students. Every single one of them that I know wants to get out of Italy as soon as possible after graduating. They all feel (Probably correctly) that there's simply no opportunity for them here. The Nespotism and horrible bureaucracy along with excessive taxes (With not much value provided in return) are crushing the soul of Italy.
  - collyw 8y ago
    From the quick glance I had the salaries seemed really low.
marmaduke 8y ago
French salaries for postdocs and engineers in public research are fairly under average. Still we have plenty of Italians in our lab
- borroka 8y ago
  The Italian postdoc salaries are comparable to the French ones and there are more opportunities in France than in Italy for some Italians, e.g. those that are not in the line of succession to the throne. When I was doing research in Italy, I never met a French scientist employed in any lab.
  - hectormalot 8y ago
    Anecdotally I'd say that research salaries in Italy seem quite low. I did an internship together with an Italian student in Switzerland. He had a full-time offer in Italy for what was seen as a good salary. Still, he made substantially more as an intern in Switzerland than he would make as a scientist in Italy.
    - borroka 8y ago
      Living in Switzerland is much more expensive than living in Italy (housing especially), so salaries are more or less adjusted accordingly to the cost of living. Then, there are also some top Universities in Switzerland. When I was doing my postdoc ~ 7-10 years ago, I was making 1500 euros after taxes.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        Living in Switzerland is much more expensive than living in Italy (housing especially), so salaries are more or less adjusted accordingly to the cost of living. A relative adjustment might still mean a large absolute difference, though; I don't know about Italy and Switzerland, but even paying double for a house in Luxembourg compared to an equivalent in Portugal, and not earning double, I still had more money at the end of the month.
programLyrique 8y ago
It would be interesting to see the percentages for scientists and researchers independently. For France, for instance, researchers' wages are not very high. A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month before taxes typically for instance. On the contrary, I think that the salary of engineers is competitive with the ones in the UK and Germany.
- hef19898 8y ago
  Depends, in aerospace employees in Germany are paid way better on average then in France. At least that was the case a couple of years ago. Unless, of course,vthe really high echalons which tended to be the contrary. Hard to compare with costs of living.
- JPLeRouzic 8y ago
  > A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month Indeed this a low wage considering the cost of life, but two third of French earn less than that [0]. A few days ago a statistic about middle class in France was considering 1200 euros as representative of French middle class, even if this is roughly the legal minimum wage. [0] https://www.inegalites.fr/Salaire-etes-vous-riche-ou-pauvre https://www.inegalites.fr/Salaire-etes-vous-riche-ou-pauvre
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- user5994461 8y ago
  French researchers at the big research institutions have a great package. A good wage, benefits you can't begin to fathom (for example 10 weeks of paid holidays is nothing special) and employment is guaranteed for life once permanent. The only negative is that the package is not really adjusted for location. It's a bit low in Paris compared to working in the industry (assuming you're good enough for that). It's competitive everywhere else.
m00dy 8y ago
Turkey has now a great exodus ever in its history. Most of the educated Turks are now trying to abandon their beloved country. Recent stats indicate that top 4 countries they are going are UK, Germany, France, Netherlands [1]. If you see any of these precious guys, just say hi to them. They will speak to you. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42433668 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42433668
- egeozcan 8y ago
  I've been living in Germany since almost 10 years (I think I should celebrate this?) and I've met many people who also migrated from Turkey, but the overwhelming majority (me included) are not scientists, but many of them have engineering degrees. Just an anecdote, yes, but I've moved around a lot and now I'm living in a city with 25% student population.
  - mseidl 8y ago
    Hello my fellow Turkey Gerkey. I'm half German and half Turkish.
- enraged_camel 8y ago
  The overwhelming majority of Turks living in Germany are second or third-generation. They are descendants of Turkish workers who emigrated to Germany in the 1960s and 1970s to make up for Germany's dire need for laborers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany#Mainland_Turkish_migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany#Mainland_Turk...
- whatupmd 8y ago
  Turkey is not in the EU.
  - m00dy 8y ago
    too late to say that :)
ciguy 8y ago
I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as managers while the smartest get put into lower positions. It's a great place to live if you have money, but a horrible place to be for smart young people without lots of social/family clout.
- arximboldi 8y ago
  I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany.
  - rleigh 8y ago
    Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.
    - ItsMe000001 8y ago
      So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)
rossdavidh 8y ago
I know it's not the same, culturally, but there is something similar that happens within the U.S. Places like Texas, New York, and California have historically had lots of scientists and engineers move there from places like Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Wyoming. This is also true of computer programmers. Of course, within the U.S. it is not generally as noticed or lamented, but probably it is harder to get a scientific or engineering hub started when most of the locals who are interested in that sort of thing keep moving away. Again, not saying it doesn't have different causes and consequences in the EU, just that it's not totally different, either.
- iguy 8y ago
  Something similar has long happened even within EU countries. Gregory Clark was giving talks about historical data on this in England, looking roughly for signals of people who were born in the north, got rich, and tended to move south -- as many did. https://voxeu.org/article/decline-northern-england-1780-2018 https://voxeu.org/article/decline-northern-england-1780-2018 He goes so far as to claim that this migration has been strong enough to explain much of the present economic differences between north & south.
dmos62 8y ago
I like how this gives evidence to some kind of latin-germanic divide of the south-western Europe, or what we usually just call Western Europe. Apologies in advance for superficial labeling.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Either don’t apologise or don’t do it.
  - dmos62 8y ago
    I apologise, because while I hold it accurate, hence I use it, the labeling is superficial. "He's this, he's that" is not something you enjoy throwing around. You either think there's nothing to apologise for, in which case you're just criticizing my manner of conversation, or you think the labeling is inaccurate or demeaning, in which case you fail to demonstrate how. In either case, brevity and directness of your criticism don't mix well.
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      I think that you think it’s accurate but demeaning. I value the truth more than feelings. If you value feelings more lie. Lie unhesitatingly. Lie with no apologies. Lie with vehemence. Lie and work to destroy the lives of those who love the truth. If you value truth more work to expose the truth. But whatever you do don’t apologise. If you’re going to try to destroy people’s life’s work own it. If you’re going to try and bury an opinion because it has bad consequences without regard for whether it’s true or not own it, know it. Those who follow you may believe they’re burying a lie but you should know you’re doing your best to bury something you believe to be true. But don’t piss on the people whose lives and beliefs you work to erase by apologising. Show them the respect of working to destroy what they believe in openly.
tobbe2064 8y ago
I doubt the situation in Spain, Italy and France can compare to the one in Romania, Poland or any of the other eastern members where it's not just the scientist and engineers but also the doctors, nurses teachers etc etc that have much better prospects abroad
- gordaco 8y ago
  Here in Spain is also quite common that nurses emigrate. Mainly to the UK, although that will surely change after Brexit.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Same in Portugal. We have medical graduates migrating out to the north, and we're importing medical staff from non-EU countries (e.g. South America).
- markatkinson 8y ago
  You should see South Africa. It is more of a stampede. Everyone I know has either left or is trying. Literally ten out of the twelve friends I have are either in UK, Aus or US. The ones still in ZA are clammering to get out.
  - tormeh 8y ago
    Have heard similar anecdotes from Iranians. Those mostly go to the US, though.
zanybear 8y ago
I think this chart would be better explained when correlated with investment in R&D by country
timwaagh 8y ago
maybe the commission could prepare some 'tariffs' on the 'export' of 'grey matter' to soon-to-be not-EU countries. just saying.
ggm 8y ago
Olivetti was a byword for industrial design in the sixties and seventies. Amazing styling. I know someone who did years of study in the wool business she said fellow interns would slaughter small children for a job in the Italian fashion industry. What goes around comes around. TEFL teachers get jobs in Italy...
- tomatocracy 8y ago
  Specialist manufacturing remains a very important part of the Italian economy - eg see this article about Beretta and the broader gun industry https://www.politico.eu/interactive/in-pictures-italian-village-that-makes-worlds-guns-firearms/ https://www.politico.eu/interactive/in-pictures-italian-vill...
clubm8 8y ago
To be fair, isn't this a problem in any federation? When we send people to Alabama, we're not sending our finest...
sgt101 8y ago
I'm in the UK and recruiting junior (just postgrad) folks into AI applied research. Pm me if interested.
- Mielly 8y ago
  Good job asking for PMs when it's not possible, and with no contact email. Is the offer legit?
  - sgt101 8y ago
    Oops - apologies. I forgot how HN works. Mail me at simon.2.thompson@gmail.com - it's legit, it's in Suffolk, I'm not competing with Google or Facebook for wages but pay ahead of EPSRC and it is research - applied research, but still research.
whatupmd 8y ago
Juxatapose this with number of multi-national or us-based companies in each EU member and we might be on to something.
expertentipp 8y ago
Yes absolutely, e.g. Italy and Germany have exactly the same demographic situation (post-WWII boom, their children, and the third wave not happening), their social and pension systems face the same challenges. Now compare number of capable, production age, employed Italians living long-term in Germany and vice versa. The same problems will mature in Poland within 5-10 years.
binbag 8y ago
This is interesting. I'm UK native and my feeling was that the UK is struggling to develop more engys/scienstists. But other countries are evidently struggling even more. I also thought that Germany's contribution would be way more than the UK's, but that's not the case.
- user5994461 8y ago
  To be honest, there aren't that many jobs to fill and there wouldn't be much point in having more graduates. Also, UK universities are expensive and not particularly good. UK Graduates have to compete against the cream of the crop of European graduates who had free education and are desperate to flee their country.
  - binbag 8y ago
    I don't understand your point. The UK contains the largest proportion of STEM workers in Europe, equalled only by Germany, and the UK contains some of the best unis in the world.
    - user5994461 8y ago
      The first point is self explanatory. There is no shortage of STEM graduates and a limited amount of jobs. Why would would you want to train many more? Every big developed country has some of the best universities in the world. The UK is not any better than what can be found in Germany, France, Switzerland, Poland or Romania. I guess what I am trying to get at is that there is no struggling as you said. It's the opposite in fact, there are way too many engineers/scientists trained across Europe. They can't find jobs where they come from and they are forced to move to London or Germany.
      - growlist 8y ago
        > The UK is not any better than what can be found in Germany, France, Switzerland, Poland or Romania. Proof? US dominates global rankings, with UK pretty much second.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
What did they expect? Being so hostile towards the big US tech companies was a bit of a stupid move and very short term thinking.
overkalix 8y ago
The data is very, very weak. I think that most scientists and engineers from Spain, Italy and Greece have similar experiences to mine, though. I got my degree and masters in one of the above. I left to work in northern Europe. I came back home because I got a PhD grant. The chances of obtaining a stable job as researcher or teacher are not great. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to guess what my move will be once I am a doctor.
londons_explore 8y ago
What is the definition of scientist or engineer? A lot of people with science or engineering degrees go on to careers which don't make use of what they have learned in their degree (for example finance), and instead use the degree on the CV as an indicator of 'probably a smart person'. In countries without that effect, people might not see the need to get an engineering degree to get those same jobs, and instead prove they are a great candidate in another way.
rdm_blackhole 8y ago
Its no surprise, in France 50% of the population makes less than 1850 euros net per month. Try to live on that when your rent is close to 800 euros for a 1 bedroom apartment(not even in Paris). That's why I left! Plus the social services and public transport is utter crap with strikes, breakdown, constant unreliability. Government employees don't care about your issues. No wonder that people are living.
craigmorrison 8y ago
This is what happens when you have freedom of movement over a log period of time. People are going to love where the opportunities are, especially if it’s made easy. I bet a similar graph for the US would show people moving to states like CA and NY.

160 points by siberianbear 8y ago

tl;dr: It looks like there no opportunity for Italian scientists and engineers: they're all moving to Germany and the UK.

snaky 8y ago
They will fix it European way. > Support from the European Union could come handy in helping Italian and Spanish entrepreneurs overcome the gap with more developed parts of Europe, both in terms of funding and networking opportunities. Indeed, as for the former, both nations are among the first beneficiaries, in the last two years, of the funds earmarked by the EU for innovation and technological research in the Horizon 2020 program. > Such instruments, however, while helpful, are not by any means perfect. “I think there is a lot of European money getting lost in the process between the people who is getting the grants and the entrepreneurs,” the vice president of the Spanish Startups Association, Carmen Bermejo, says. “The ones who know how to apply and get the European grants are sometimes not the same ones that know how to help the startups and deliver value. This is even worse if we speak about the European funds for regional cohesion, that depend a lot on personal contacts and relationships,” she adds. https://www.forbes.com/sites/federicoguerrini/2016/07/06/how-building-a-stronger-startup-ecosystem-could-help-tackle-youth-unemployment-in-italy-and-spain/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/federicoguerrini/2016/07/06/how...
- borroka 8y ago
  The effect of these ERA (European Research Agency) initiatives is zero. EU likes to throw money at problems without following up; for an enlightening example one can look at the Marie Curie fellowship. Money thrown at researcher for 2 or 3 years of research in EU or outside of EU institutions with zero follow up at the end of the fellowship. As far as I know, the vast majority of MC fellows leave academia and research at the end of the fellowship.
  - kmlx 8y ago
    It's the same in other fields. Eastern European countries currently suffer from a plague of politicians and special interests that funnel EU funds straight to either their own personal bank accounts or to close friends and companies. [0] [1] [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/hungary-orban-balaton/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/hungary-... [1] https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites/antifraud/files/olaf_report_2017_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites/antifraud/files/olaf_r...
    - borroka 8y ago
      In the example I was describing above, the money goes to researchers (I was one of the recipients), but since there are no follow-ups, such as some support for researchers that finish the fellowship and are looking for jobs, the downstream effect of the Marie Curie actions is close to 0. You would think that a change of action would swiftly follow the analysis of data, especially after ~ 20 years of Marie Curie actions, but the EU Soviet-style bureaucracies are just interested in their survival and the appearance of effective action.
    - bobthechef 8y ago
      Or Western companies. For instance, whenever a country in Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) defies the EU, the affiliated pro-federalist media outlets immediately start to claim how these countries are large beneficiaries of EU funds (read: ungrateful). The funny thing is that the economies of these countries are heavily colonized by Western companies and conglomerates that often siphon EU funds back into Western hands. Furthermore, the legal systems in those countries are still reeling from Soviet control and need a serious overhaul. Western companies gladly exploit loopholes and make corrupt deals with post-communist elites to, for example, get at funds or avoid paying enormous amounts of taxes. Certainly, CEE countries have improved a great deal since '89, but the West really doesn't appreciate how traumatic WWII was for these countries, how disruptive the Nazis and the Soviets were, how half a century of Soviet domination scarred them, and how much work needs to be done to undo the damage. It's little wonder Western elites worry when these countries try to address these issues. They (the Western elites) are the beneficiaries of these exploitative practices that gladly employ in what Piketty calls "foreign-owned countries".

village-idiot 8y ago

Random thought: the UK has the advantage of speaking English. First, that makes it easier for them to pull in other Europeans, since english is commonly the second language of most other Europeans. Second they can also pull in American and Canadian expats much easier than anyone else in Europe. Germany is more interesting to me. German is not exactly the worlds most common first or second language. So this is more evidence of their complete and utter domination within the eu.

pjmlp 8y ago
When I did my degree in the mid-90s it was already common to do a semester in Germany. My university had exchange programs with Fraunhofer for those doing graphics research.
borroka 8y ago
Assuming (wrongly, but that's ok at first approximation) that money spent on academic research is a fraction of GDP, and that there is a positive correlation between money spent on research and jobs in research, UK and Germany should come on top for number of scientists. Plus they have, apart from the French CNRS, the top Institutions for scientific research in Europe.
egeozcan 8y ago
Contrary to what most people believe, I see that native English speakers can learn German rather easily (with a pretty distinct accent, which I really like :)). Your point stands though, as they usually don't know this before they actually start learning, so they must have other reasons.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  Totally irrelevant but perhaps amusing: In my American high school, I took German as a second language (yay Wisconsin). I then took Mandarin Chinese in college. Even in my fifth year, when a teacher asked me a question, I had a 50/50 chance of thinking of the answer in German first. It was utterly maddening. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to travel abroad or maintain that knowledge, so all I really remember is "ich spreche nür ein bischen deutch". That, and the day that my teacher asked me what "ich habe keine ahnung" meant, I didn't know. She had me ask another student... Imagine my frustration when the only answer was "I have no idea".

borroka 8y ago

The article is not clear; I did not look at the raw data, but the expectation of parity between population percent and percent of scientists/engineers is a hypothesis itself. It is well known that Italy produced far fewer people with advanced degree per capita than many other EU countries.

borroka 8y ago
Interesting downvote

jsnell 8y ago

I don't understand how these graphs show brain drain, there a bunch of other explanations. For example maybe a bigger proportion of Germans get an appropriate university degree than Italians. Or maybe the people getting an engineering degree in Italy can't get a job in that field, and end up working on something else but not emigrating. Or the difference comes from non-EU scientists/engineers preferentially moving to UK or Germany when immigrating to the EU. To show brain drain you really need to look at the migration flows, not a static snapshot of the current populations.

ff_ 8y ago
Italian engineer here. The brain drain is real and the graphs represent quite accurately what's happening to me and my peers. (It might be my bubble of course, but hey, now we have this legit-looking snapshot in the article)
- ciguy 8y ago
  I'm American but living in Italy right now, and it's really sad talking to Uni students. Every single one of them that I know wants to get out of Italy as soon as possible after graduating. They all feel (Probably correctly) that there's simply no opportunity for them here. The Nespotism and horrible bureaucracy along with excessive taxes (With not much value provided in return) are crushing the soul of Italy.
- collyw 8y ago
  From the quick glance I had the salaries seemed really low.

marmaduke 8y ago

French salaries for postdocs and engineers in public research are fairly under average. Still we have plenty of Italians in our lab

borroka 8y ago
The Italian postdoc salaries are comparable to the French ones and there are more opportunities in France than in Italy for some Italians, e.g. those that are not in the line of succession to the throne. When I was doing research in Italy, I never met a French scientist employed in any lab.
- hectormalot 8y ago
  Anecdotally I'd say that research salaries in Italy seem quite low. I did an internship together with an Italian student in Switzerland. He had a full-time offer in Italy for what was seen as a good salary. Still, he made substantially more as an intern in Switzerland than he would make as a scientist in Italy.
  - borroka 8y ago
    Living in Switzerland is much more expensive than living in Italy (housing especially), so salaries are more or less adjusted accordingly to the cost of living. Then, there are also some top Universities in Switzerland. When I was doing my postdoc ~ 7-10 years ago, I was making 1500 euros after taxes.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Living in Switzerland is much more expensive than living in Italy (housing especially), so salaries are more or less adjusted accordingly to the cost of living. A relative adjustment might still mean a large absolute difference, though; I don't know about Italy and Switzerland, but even paying double for a house in Luxembourg compared to an equivalent in Portugal, and not earning double, I still had more money at the end of the month.

programLyrique 8y ago

It would be interesting to see the percentages for scientists and researchers independently. For France, for instance, researchers' wages are not very high. A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month before taxes typically for instance. On the contrary, I think that the salary of engineers is competitive with the ones in the UK and Germany.

hef19898 8y ago
Depends, in aerospace employees in Germany are paid way better on average then in France. At least that was the case a couple of years ago. Unless, of course,vthe really high echalons which tended to be the contrary. Hard to compare with costs of living.
JPLeRouzic 8y ago
> A lecturer typically starts with about 2115 euros per month Indeed this a low wage considering the cost of life, but two third of French earn less than that [0]. A few days ago a statistic about middle class in France was considering 1200 euros as representative of French middle class, even if this is roughly the legal minimum wage. [0] https://www.inegalites.fr/Salaire-etes-vous-riche-ou-pauvre https://www.inegalites.fr/Salaire-etes-vous-riche-ou-pauvre
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
user5994461 8y ago
French researchers at the big research institutions have a great package. A good wage, benefits you can't begin to fathom (for example 10 weeks of paid holidays is nothing special) and employment is guaranteed for life once permanent. The only negative is that the package is not really adjusted for location. It's a bit low in Paris compared to working in the industry (assuming you're good enough for that). It's competitive everywhere else.

m00dy 8y ago

Turkey has now a great exodus ever in its history. Most of the educated Turks are now trying to abandon their beloved country. Recent stats indicate that top 4 countries they are going are UK, Germany, France, Netherlands [1]. If you see any of these precious guys, just say hi to them. They will speak to you. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42433668 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42433668

egeozcan 8y ago
I've been living in Germany since almost 10 years (I think I should celebrate this?) and I've met many people who also migrated from Turkey, but the overwhelming majority (me included) are not scientists, but many of them have engineering degrees. Just an anecdote, yes, but I've moved around a lot and now I'm living in a city with 25% student population.
- mseidl 8y ago
  Hello my fellow Turkey Gerkey. I'm half German and half Turkish.
enraged_camel 8y ago
The overwhelming majority of Turks living in Germany are second or third-generation. They are descendants of Turkish workers who emigrated to Germany in the 1960s and 1970s to make up for Germany's dire need for laborers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany#Mainland_Turkish_migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany#Mainland_Turk...
whatupmd 8y ago
Turkey is not in the EU.
- m00dy 8y ago
  too late to say that :)

ciguy 8y ago

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as managers while the smartest get put into lower positions. It's a great place to live if you have money, but a horrible place to be for smart young people without lots of social/family clout.

arximboldi 8y ago
I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the south is precisely preventing it from really leaving the crisis. I want higher taxes if it comes, for example, with free university, like in Germany.
- rleigh 8y ago
  Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)

rossdavidh 8y ago

I know it's not the same, culturally, but there is something similar that happens within the U.S. Places like Texas, New York, and California have historically had lots of scientists and engineers move there from places like Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Wyoming. This is also true of computer programmers. Of course, within the U.S. it is not generally as noticed or lamented, but probably it is harder to get a scientific or engineering hub started when most of the locals who are interested in that sort of thing keep moving away. Again, not saying it doesn't have different causes and consequences in the EU, just that it's not totally different, either.

iguy 8y ago
Something similar has long happened even within EU countries. Gregory Clark was giving talks about historical data on this in England, looking roughly for signals of people who were born in the north, got rich, and tended to move south -- as many did. https://voxeu.org/article/decline-northern-england-1780-2018 https://voxeu.org/article/decline-northern-england-1780-2018 He goes so far as to claim that this migration has been strong enough to explain much of the present economic differences between north & south.

dmos62 8y ago

I like how this gives evidence to some kind of latin-germanic divide of the south-western Europe, or what we usually just call Western Europe. Apologies in advance for superficial labeling.

barry-cotter 8y ago
Either don’t apologise or don’t do it.
- dmos62 8y ago
  I apologise, because while I hold it accurate, hence I use it, the labeling is superficial. "He's this, he's that" is not something you enjoy throwing around. You either think there's nothing to apologise for, in which case you're just criticizing my manner of conversation, or you think the labeling is inaccurate or demeaning, in which case you fail to demonstrate how. In either case, brevity and directness of your criticism don't mix well.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    I think that you think it’s accurate but demeaning. I value the truth more than feelings. If you value feelings more lie. Lie unhesitatingly. Lie with no apologies. Lie with vehemence. Lie and work to destroy the lives of those who love the truth. If you value truth more work to expose the truth. But whatever you do don’t apologise. If you’re going to try to destroy people’s life’s work own it. If you’re going to try and bury an opinion because it has bad consequences without regard for whether it’s true or not own it, know it. Those who follow you may believe they’re burying a lie but you should know you’re doing your best to bury something you believe to be true. But don’t piss on the people whose lives and beliefs you work to erase by apologising. Show them the respect of working to destroy what they believe in openly.

tobbe2064 8y ago

I doubt the situation in Spain, Italy and France can compare to the one in Romania, Poland or any of the other eastern members where it's not just the scientist and engineers but also the doctors, nurses teachers etc etc that have much better prospects abroad

gordaco 8y ago
Here in Spain is also quite common that nurses emigrate. Mainly to the UK, although that will surely change after Brexit.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Same in Portugal. We have medical graduates migrating out to the north, and we're importing medical staff from non-EU countries (e.g. South America).
markatkinson 8y ago
You should see South Africa. It is more of a stampede. Everyone I know has either left or is trying. Literally ten out of the twelve friends I have are either in UK, Aus or US. The ones still in ZA are clammering to get out.
- tormeh 8y ago
  Have heard similar anecdotes from Iranians. Those mostly go to the US, though.

zanybear 8y ago

I think this chart would be better explained when correlated with investment in R&D by country

timwaagh 8y ago

maybe the commission could prepare some 'tariffs' on the 'export' of 'grey matter' to soon-to-be not-EU countries. just saying.

ggm 8y ago

Olivetti was a byword for industrial design in the sixties and seventies. Amazing styling. I know someone who did years of study in the wool business she said fellow interns would slaughter small children for a job in the Italian fashion industry. What goes around comes around. TEFL teachers get jobs in Italy...

tomatocracy 8y ago
Specialist manufacturing remains a very important part of the Italian economy - eg see this article about Beretta and the broader gun industry https://www.politico.eu/interactive/in-pictures-italian-village-that-makes-worlds-guns-firearms/ https://www.politico.eu/interactive/in-pictures-italian-vill...

clubm8 8y ago

To be fair, isn't this a problem in any federation? When we send people to Alabama, we're not sending our finest...

sgt101 8y ago

I'm in the UK and recruiting junior (just postgrad) folks into AI applied research. Pm me if interested.

Mielly 8y ago
Good job asking for PMs when it's not possible, and with no contact email. Is the offer legit?
- sgt101 8y ago
  Oops - apologies. I forgot how HN works. Mail me at simon.2.thompson@gmail.com - it's legit, it's in Suffolk, I'm not competing with Google or Facebook for wages but pay ahead of EPSRC and it is research - applied research, but still research.

whatupmd 8y ago

Juxatapose this with number of multi-national or us-based companies in each EU member and we might be on to something.

expertentipp 8y ago

Yes absolutely, e.g. Italy and Germany have exactly the same demographic situation (post-WWII boom, their children, and the third wave not happening), their social and pension systems face the same challenges. Now compare number of capable, production age, employed Italians living long-term in Germany and vice versa. The same problems will mature in Poland within 5-10 years.

binbag 8y ago

This is interesting. I'm UK native and my feeling was that the UK is struggling to develop more engys/scienstists. But other countries are evidently struggling even more. I also thought that Germany's contribution would be way more than the UK's, but that's not the case.

user5994461 8y ago
To be honest, there aren't that many jobs to fill and there wouldn't be much point in having more graduates. Also, UK universities are expensive and not particularly good. UK Graduates have to compete against the cream of the crop of European graduates who had free education and are desperate to flee their country.
- binbag 8y ago
  I don't understand your point. The UK contains the largest proportion of STEM workers in Europe, equalled only by Germany, and the UK contains some of the best unis in the world.
  - user5994461 8y ago
    The first point is self explanatory. There is no shortage of STEM graduates and a limited amount of jobs. Why would would you want to train many more? Every big developed country has some of the best universities in the world. The UK is not any better than what can be found in Germany, France, Switzerland, Poland or Romania. I guess what I am trying to get at is that there is no struggling as you said. It's the opposite in fact, there are way too many engineers/scientists trained across Europe. They can't find jobs where they come from and they are forced to move to London or Germany.
    - growlist 8y ago
      > The UK is not any better than what can be found in Germany, France, Switzerland, Poland or Romania. Proof? US dominates global rankings, with UK pretty much second.

jacksmith21006 8y ago

What did they expect? Being so hostile towards the big US tech companies was a bit of a stupid move and very short term thinking.

overkalix 8y ago

The data is very, very weak. I think that most scientists and engineers from Spain, Italy and Greece have similar experiences to mine, though. I got my degree and masters in one of the above. I left to work in northern Europe. I came back home because I got a PhD grant. The chances of obtaining a stable job as researcher or teacher are not great. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to guess what my move will be once I am a doctor.

londons_explore 8y ago

What is the definition of scientist or engineer? A lot of people with science or engineering degrees go on to careers which don't make use of what they have learned in their degree (for example finance), and instead use the degree on the CV as an indicator of 'probably a smart person'. In countries without that effect, people might not see the need to get an engineering degree to get those same jobs, and instead prove they are a great candidate in another way.

rdm_blackhole 8y ago

Its no surprise, in France 50% of the population makes less than 1850 euros net per month. Try to live on that when your rent is close to 800 euros for a 1 bedroom apartment(not even in Paris). That's why I left! Plus the social services and public transport is utter crap with strikes, breakdown, constant unreliability. Government employees don't care about your issues. No wonder that people are living.

craigmorrison 8y ago

This is what happens when you have freedom of movement over a log period of time. People are going to love where the opportunities are, especially if it’s made easy. I bet a similar graph for the US would show people moving to states like CA and NY.