5 ms·

Here's my (completely unsubstantiated) theory. It happend literally the day after crossing $500 & 50K views in adsense. I'm guessing one of those was a trigger

Here's my (completely unsubstantiated) theory. It happend literally the day after crossing $500 & 50K views in adsense. I'm guessing one of those was a trigger for manual review by some contractor, perhaps overseas. They looked at my sites for 3 sec, found them to be cookie-cutter and decided to blacklist the account. I get the impression they shoot first, ask questions later. I didn't feel like dealing with it all or starting over so I just moved on to other things.

jacquesm 16y ago
I wonder how many otherwise viable little businesses fall victim to this heavy handed approach. Is this one of the reasons DDG got started?
- epi0Bauqu 16y ago
  Well, it did push me onto other things, though I wasn't (at least consciously) looking to get back at Google.
stakent 16y ago
In my case some clicks worth over $2 (if I remember correctly) triggered manual review. They sent me canned email about tos etc. The funny part is that the domain in question was already expired when email arrived because I've decided to stop this venture.
asmithmd1 16y ago
I talked to someone from Google at I/O who should know and he claimed they don't play "Whack a mole" with websites. They will tweak their ranking algorithm to punish the behavior they see in a web site they don't want to be ranked.
- bobds 16y ago
  Lies, damned lies.
- epi0Bauqu 16y ago
  Interesting, but in this case it wasn't that it was ranked lower, but that one day I had 25 domains indexed fine and the next day they were no where to be found, i.e. not in the index at all. And I had plenty of other domains (not in that adsense account) that were still ranked fine.
- bigiain 16y ago
  Matt Cutts often tells us this - but he talks specifically from a search web spam perspective, I suspect the Adsense team have different rules and probably can (and do) "play Whack a mole" when appropriate.
- Matt_Cutts 16y ago
  That was probably me. We have two sides to the webspam team at Google: engineering and manual. We definitely prefer to write algorithms so that we avoid dealing with individual websites--the idea is that you strive to fix the root cause of an issue, not to tackle specific sites. However, if we see a website that violates our guidelines and that gets past the algorithms, we are willing to take manual action. Where possible, we use the output of the manual team not only to reduce spam itself, but to train the next iteration of algorithms. For example, one of the big issues in blackhat spam this past year was illegally hacked sites. Our algorithms weren't doing the best job on hacked sites, so the manual team kept an eye out for hacked sites to remove them (and often to alert the website owners that they'd been hacked). The data generated by the manual team helped us build and deploy multiple new algorithms to detect hacked sites, leading to a 90% reduction in the number of hacked sites showing up in Google's search results in the past few months. That decrease in hacked spam in turn frees up the manual team to tackle the next bleeding-edge technique the spammers use. I suspect every major search engine uses similar approaches: try to stop the majority of spam with algorithms, but be willing to take action in the mean time while engineers work to improve the algorithms.
  - epi0Bauqu 16y ago
    Great to know. Out of curiosity, in this particular case, did you save supposed violations for each site, or did you blacklist all of them based on a few?
    - Matt_Cutts 16y ago
      It varies for different cases depending on a lot of factors like severity, impact on users, etc. In the particular case from above, to find out the history of what might have happened, I just picked a domain at random and dug into its history to find the autogenerated pages with tons of typos for each domain. I kinda thought one example would make the point. Does it help that much more to give another example? I can look more up. For http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/ http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/ it looks like you were autogenerating typos not just for websites, but for popular blogs. So http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/jeffmatthewsisnotmakingth... looks like it had (I had to cut out the vast majority of the typos because the comment was too long for HN.) jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspoot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.bloyspot.com, jegfmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnomakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthwesisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.nlogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.ccom, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.bligspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakinghtisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmacingthisup.blogspot.com, jdffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnot akingthisup.blogspot.com, ieffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup/blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmajingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthishp.blogspot.com, jeff atthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot/com, jeffmatthewwisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com." I could post more examples from the other domains, but my point is that this is the sort of thing that users dislike and complain about. If you were a blogger and saw pages like this ranking for your name or your site's name, you probably wouldn't be happy either. From looking at a few domains, I don't think that we overgeneralized from a few pages in this case. I know that you've moved on and the domains are shut down now. And I'm not trying to be cantankerous. I'm just trying to say that from our point of view there's good reasons to take action on sites like this so that users don't complain to us.
Matt_Cutts 16y ago
I don't think that was the issue. The fact is that if you've got dozens of websites, each of which has lists of domains/IPs like http://www.mattcutts.com/images/verypopularwebsites-com.png http://www.mattcutts.com/images/verypopularwebsites-com.png , that is the sort of thing that users complain about and don't want showing up when they do a search. Especially if sites have autogenerated boilerplate content for each one of those links. I mean, if you're auto-generating a page that has this text: "Elcorillord.com Common misspellings and typos: Elcroillord.com, Elcorilolrd.com, Elcori.lord.com, Elcofillord.com, www.elcorillord.com, lEcorillord.com, Elcotillord.com, Elcorillor.com, Elcoeillord.com, Elcori,lord.com, Wlcorillord.com, Elcorjllord.com, Elcorillord.coom, Elocrillord.com, Elcor8llord.com, Elvorillord.com, Elcorillprd.com, Elcorillord.cim, Elcorillorf.com, Elcorilloed.com, Elorillord.com, Elckrillord.com, Elcoriplord.com, Elcorillord.ckm, Elcorillord.cm, Elcorillord.ccom, Epcorillord.com, Elcoril;ord.com, Elcoirllord.com, Elcoriillord.com, Elforillord.com, 3lcorillord.com, Elcorollord.com, Elcorillordd.com, Elcorill0rd.com, Elcorillord/com, Elcoriolord.com, Ekcorillord.com, Elcorillord.xom, Elcorillord.co, Elcorilord.com, Elcoillord.com, 4lcorillord.com, Elcoriloord.com, Elcorillorr.com, Eldorillord.com, Elcorillord..com, Elcorrillord.com, http://www.elcorillord.com http://www.elcorillord.com, El orillord.com, E.corillord.com, Elcorillord. om, Elcorilllrd.com, Elcorillrod.com, Elcoriklord.com, Elcorillorrd.com, Elcorillordcom, Elcorillkrd.com, Elcorillord.om, Elcorlilord.com, Elco4illord.com, Elcorillrd.com, Elcprillord.com, Elcodillord.com, Elcorillordc.om, Ecorillord.com, Elcoorillord.com, Slcorillord.com, Elcorillorx.com, Elcorill9rd.com, Elcorilpord.com, Elcorillord.cpm, Elcorillord.fom, Elco5illord.com, Elc9rillord.com, Elcorillird.com, Elcirillord.com, Elcorillord.clm, Elcorillors.com, Elcorillord.vom, Elcorullord.com, Elcorillord.comm, Elcorillord.c9m, Eocorillord.com, Elcorilloord.com, Elcourillourd.com, E,corillord.com, Elcorkllord.com, Elcorillodr.com, Elcorillodd.com, Elcorillord,com, Elcorillotd.com, Elcorillod.com, Elcorillor.dcom, Elcor9llord.com, Elc0rillord.com, Elcoril,ord.com, Elcorilllord.com, Elcorillo5d.com, EElcorillord.com, Elxorillord.com, E;corillord.com, Elcori;lord.com, Elcorllord.com, Elccorillord.com, Elcrillord.com, Elcoril.ord.com, Elcorilkord.com, Elcorillord.cmo, Ellcorillord.com, Eclorillord.com, Elcorillo4d.com, Rlcorillord.com, wwwelcorillord.com, Elclrillord.com, ElcorillordLcom, Dlcorillord.com, Elcorillofd.com, Elcorillore.com, Elcorillord;com, lcorillord.com, Elcorillorc.com, Elcorillord.c0m, Elcorillord.dom, Elcorillord.ocm." Surely you have to see where many people would consider that either keyword stuffing, gibberish or typo spam.

jacquesm 16y ago

I wonder how many otherwise viable little businesses fall victim to this heavy handed approach. Is this one of the reasons DDG got started?

epi0Bauqu 16y ago
Well, it did push me onto other things, though I wasn't (at least consciously) looking to get back at Google.

stakent 16y ago

In my case some clicks worth over $2 (if I remember correctly) triggered manual review. They sent me canned email about tos etc. The funny part is that the domain in question was already expired when email arrived because I've decided to stop this venture.

asmithmd1 16y ago

I talked to someone from Google at I/O who should know and he claimed they don't play "Whack a mole" with websites. They will tweak their ranking algorithm to punish the behavior they see in a web site they don't want to be ranked.

bobds 16y ago
Lies, damned lies.
epi0Bauqu 16y ago
Interesting, but in this case it wasn't that it was ranked lower, but that one day I had 25 domains indexed fine and the next day they were no where to be found, i.e. not in the index at all. And I had plenty of other domains (not in that adsense account) that were still ranked fine.
bigiain 16y ago
Matt Cutts often tells us this - but he talks specifically from a search web spam perspective, I suspect the Adsense team have different rules and probably can (and do) "play Whack a mole" when appropriate.
Matt_Cutts 16y ago
That was probably me. We have two sides to the webspam team at Google: engineering and manual. We definitely prefer to write algorithms so that we avoid dealing with individual websites--the idea is that you strive to fix the root cause of an issue, not to tackle specific sites. However, if we see a website that violates our guidelines and that gets past the algorithms, we are willing to take manual action. Where possible, we use the output of the manual team not only to reduce spam itself, but to train the next iteration of algorithms. For example, one of the big issues in blackhat spam this past year was illegally hacked sites. Our algorithms weren't doing the best job on hacked sites, so the manual team kept an eye out for hacked sites to remove them (and often to alert the website owners that they'd been hacked). The data generated by the manual team helped us build and deploy multiple new algorithms to detect hacked sites, leading to a 90% reduction in the number of hacked sites showing up in Google's search results in the past few months. That decrease in hacked spam in turn frees up the manual team to tackle the next bleeding-edge technique the spammers use. I suspect every major search engine uses similar approaches: try to stop the majority of spam with algorithms, but be willing to take action in the mean time while engineers work to improve the algorithms.
- epi0Bauqu 16y ago
  Great to know. Out of curiosity, in this particular case, did you save supposed violations for each site, or did you blacklist all of them based on a few?
  - Matt_Cutts 16y ago
    It varies for different cases depending on a lot of factors like severity, impact on users, etc. In the particular case from above, to find out the history of what might have happened, I just picked a domain at random and dug into its history to find the autogenerated pages with tons of typos for each domain. I kinda thought one example would make the point. Does it help that much more to give another example? I can look more up. For http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/ http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/ it looks like you were autogenerating typos not just for websites, but for popular blogs. So http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com http://www.bigbadblogdirectory.com/jeffmatthewsisnotmakingth... looks like it had (I had to cut out the vast majority of the typos because the comment was too long for HN.) jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspoot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.bloyspot.com, jegfmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnomakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthwesisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.nlogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.ccom, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.bligspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakinghtisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmacingthisup.blogspot.com, jdffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnot akingthisup.blogspot.com, ieffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup/blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmajingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthishp.blogspot.com, jeff atthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com, jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup.blogspot/com, jeffmatthewwisnotmakingthisup.blogspot.com." I could post more examples from the other domains, but my point is that this is the sort of thing that users dislike and complain about. If you were a blogger and saw pages like this ranking for your name or your site's name, you probably wouldn't be happy either. From looking at a few domains, I don't think that we overgeneralized from a few pages in this case. I know that you've moved on and the domains are shut down now. And I'm not trying to be cantankerous. I'm just trying to say that from our point of view there's good reasons to take action on sites like this so that users don't complain to us.

Matt_Cutts 16y ago

I don't think that was the issue. The fact is that if you've got dozens of websites, each of which has lists of domains/IPs like http://www.mattcutts.com/images/verypopularwebsites-com.png http://www.mattcutts.com/images/verypopularwebsites-com.png , that is the sort of thing that users complain about and don't want showing up when they do a search. Especially if sites have autogenerated boilerplate content for each one of those links. I mean, if you're auto-generating a page that has this text: "Elcorillord.com Common misspellings and typos: Elcroillord.com, Elcorilolrd.com, Elcori.lord.com, Elcofillord.com, www.elcorillord.com, lEcorillord.com, Elcotillord.com, Elcorillor.com, Elcoeillord.com, Elcori,lord.com, Wlcorillord.com, Elcorjllord.com, Elcorillord.coom, Elocrillord.com, Elcor8llord.com, Elvorillord.com, Elcorillprd.com, Elcorillord.cim, Elcorillorf.com, Elcorilloed.com, Elorillord.com, Elckrillord.com, Elcoriplord.com, Elcorillord.ckm, Elcorillord.cm, Elcorillord.ccom, Epcorillord.com, Elcoril;ord.com, Elcoirllord.com, Elcoriillord.com, Elforillord.com, 3lcorillord.com, Elcorollord.com, Elcorillordd.com, Elcorill0rd.com, Elcorillord/com, Elcoriolord.com, Ekcorillord.com, Elcorillord.xom, Elcorillord.co, Elcorilord.com, Elcoillord.com, 4lcorillord.com, Elcoriloord.com, Elcorillorr.com, Eldorillord.com, Elcorillord..com, Elcorrillord.com, http://www.elcorillord.com http://www.elcorillord.com, El orillord.com, E.corillord.com, Elcorillord. om, Elcorilllrd.com, Elcorillrod.com, Elcoriklord.com, Elcorillorrd.com, Elcorillordcom, Elcorillkrd.com, Elcorillord.om, Elcorlilord.com, Elco4illord.com, Elcorillrd.com, Elcprillord.com, Elcodillord.com, Elcorillordc.om, Ecorillord.com, Elcoorillord.com, Slcorillord.com, Elcorillorx.com, Elcorill9rd.com, Elcorilpord.com, Elcorillord.cpm, Elcorillord.fom, Elco5illord.com, Elc9rillord.com, Elcorillird.com, Elcirillord.com, Elcorillord.clm, Elcorillors.com, Elcorillord.vom, Elcorullord.com, Elcorillord.comm, Elcorillord.c9m, Eocorillord.com, Elcorilloord.com, Elcourillourd.com, E,corillord.com, Elcorkllord.com, Elcorillodr.com, Elcorillodd.com, Elcorillord,com, Elcorillotd.com, Elcorillod.com, Elcorillor.dcom, Elcor9llord.com, Elc0rillord.com, Elcoril,ord.com, Elcorilllord.com, Elcorillo5d.com, EElcorillord.com, Elxorillord.com, E;corillord.com, Elcori;lord.com, Elcorllord.com, Elccorillord.com, Elcrillord.com, Elcoril.ord.com, Elcorilkord.com, Elcorillord.cmo, Ellcorillord.com, Eclorillord.com, Elcorillo4d.com, Rlcorillord.com, wwwelcorillord.com, Elclrillord.com, ElcorillordLcom, Dlcorillord.com, Elcorillofd.com, Elcorillore.com, Elcorillord;com, lcorillord.com, Elcorillorc.com, Elcorillord.c0m, Elcorillord.dom, Elcorillord.ocm." Surely you have to see where many people would consider that either keyword stuffing, gibberish or typo spam.