7 ms·

After Five Years of Living in Trees, a Protest Community Is Being Evicted

94 points by extarial 8y ago

heyyyouu 8y ago
We drove through the black forest once, and we stopped off to take a picture. We walked a few feet in and that's when we saw it was all fields beyond maybe 100 feet-- the forest exists by the freeway, where we were, but it was just for show, and our imagination of this big forest beyond was just that, imagination. I'm not a environmentalist by any stretch of the imagination (for example, I think the straw law is stupid for a variety of reasons and I believe that most recycling in the US is waste, per the excellent Penn and Teller episode about it) but even I don't get or like clearcutting.
- abugheratwork 8y ago
  I think you might be an environmentalist. My understanding is that if you think the environment is something we should take care of, that's basically it. I guess you're probably just saying you don't identify or maybe agree with some other environmentalists, which also makes sense. The straw ban is a great example. Sometimes you can agree on what's important but disagree about what to do about it. I think this is the same complex process the word "feminism" gets put through. It's hard to find people who will outright say, "I think women should still have to ask permission from their husbands to seek work," for example. It's easy to find people who are quick to add, "... not that I'm a feminist or anything." I don't know. Words are funny. At the end of the day it probably doesn't matter whether you qualify as some kind of *-ist, but those words are one way we get convinced that other groups of people are opponents, instead of peers. (... one way that unscrupulous people intentionally convince us, depending on your level of cynicism.)
  - heyyyouu 8y ago
    Great perspective. Yes, maybe you're right. I hate the -ist (and I'm not sure why, so you're on to something there), but I do like the causes (when they make sense).
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    People avoid calling themselves -ist-s because when you identify yourself with a group you're bringing on to yourself a series of judgments spanning the other person's entire experience with that group. To abuse the saying, "you don't know where that's been."
    - Retra 8y ago
      Personally, I'd rather be bold and let people associate me with the title they don't like. At least then they may have an opportunity to question their assumptions.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
        I'd rather expect that they will question you long before their own assumptions.
      - whatshisface 8y ago
        If the last neo-vefaminist they met was a great person, you'd be free-riding on a reputation that you hadn't earned yet. If the last neo-vefaminist they met was a terrible person (potentially someone who was free-riding on the name), and if you call yourself a neo-vefaminist, you're communicating to them that you're a terrible person which would be incorrect because you aren't.
    - cuboidGoat 8y ago
      I do not like defining myself with '-ists'. Instead I will generally refer to the '-ism' and point out where I agree and where I differ. I have found this position has the side-effect of being an easy way to spot who is just playing team sports with philosophies. They are the folk who get really angry with people who agree with them on specifics, purely for not using a subject label self-referentially.
- icc97 8y ago
  You do realise that the Black Forest spans an area of 6,000km^2 that varies from 70-90% forest? [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Forest#Work_of_the_Institute_of_Applied_Geography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Forest#Work_of_the_Insti...
CydeWeys 8y ago
Really sad to think that a 12,000 year old forest is slated to be cut down just to dig up an obsolete resource that will be burnt and help destroy the environment even more, while there are other alternatives that aren't used simply because they cost a bit more.
- rossdavidh 8y ago
  Especially sad since nowadays it's not even especially cheaper than some other sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:Levelized_cost_of_electricity_Germany_2018_ISE.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#...
- gascan 8y ago
  Sure makes decommissioning nuclear (and bringing coal back online to replace it) look better and better. Good job, environmentalists.
  - bambataa 8y ago
    Do you really think environmentalists are the driving force behind this?
    - 08-15 8y ago
      Yes. The war on nuclear power started when Greenpeace won the war against atmospheric testing of nuclear explosives and needed a new enemy to ensure its continued existence. The talking points against nuclear power are made up or blown out of proportion by the treehuggers, every single one of them.
      - sien 8y ago
        There are people who term themselves 'Eco-modernists' who are almost always pro-nuclear power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecomodernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecomodernism There is also 'environmentalists for nuclear' that includes Patrick Moore, one of the co-founders of Greenpeace and James Lovelock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalists_for_Nuclear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalists_for_Nuclear James Hansen, possibly the original driving force behind modern greenhouse gas concerns is also pro-nuclear.
nvahalik 8y ago
Is it just me or are the people in the main photo wearing "spaceballs" helmets?
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  Heh :) It's a neck shield, pretty common on riot control uniforms.
gascan 8y ago
RWE has undertaken measures to mitigate the mining’s impact Mitigate the impact of clearcutting an entire forest? What a laugh.
- fhbdukfrh 8y ago
  Well in western Canada we quite often clear cut blocks of forest for lumber, and based on European perspectives it probably looks like an entire forest, but there are a few considerations: It's almost always younger trees (-100 years old) and often second growth (not taking old growth coastal trees) It's pretty tightly regulated in terms of ecosystem impact, sensitive locations, buffers, though lots of people disagree with what should be acceptable They understand it's in their own self interest to replant, as some of these companies are harvesting planted trees already. It's definitely not perfect, but on the whole is sustainable, and in some cases like our recent insect infestation (mostly caused by aggressive fire suppression) the preferable method to limited scale thinning
  - grouseway 8y ago
    We almost always cut younger trees because there is basically almost no more old growth left. Here's a video showing logging on Vancouver Island over the last 100 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9hTF2oxLjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9hTF2oxLjo
  - gascan 8y ago
    I have no problems with cutting second growth, especially timber that was planted by man. It's specifically timber companies interested in harvesting old growth that irks me, because there's hardly any left, especially in Europe. Going a little further, given that second growth harvesting is widely performed & commercially viable these days, seeking to log old growth comes across as simply looking for "easy money"- old growth hardwood fetches high prices, and you skip the work of planting.
- fhbdukfrh 8y ago
  Well for me it's because i care about the environment but have no interest in a dumpster-dived vegan diet. And since i live in a detached home and own 2 cars"environmentalists" don't want me in their tribe. When you're labeled you get the entire reputation of the group, and the group gets all the attributes of its members. That makes broad labels either a tough sell or pretty meaningless.
icc97 8y ago
Some of the photos of the camp [0], a blog post about the death of the activists [1]. From what I understand there was a very heavy police presence for the eviction [2]: > In Chemnitz, 560 police officers were used to contain 2500 Neo-Nazis. In HambacherForst, 3500 police officers were used to contain 250 environmentalist [0]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/127928013@N04/albums/with/72157663305061198 https://www.flickr.com/photos/127928013@N04/albums/with/7215... [1]: https://hambachforest.org/blog/2018/09/20/press-release-09-20-2018-tragic-death-in-hambach-forest/ https://hambachforest.org/blog/2018/09/20/press-release-09-2... [2]: https://twitter.com/samim/status/1040537458922999808 https://twitter.com/samim/status/1040537458922999808
- zuttton 8y ago
  The environmentalist are destroying the potential profit of the company that can extract a fossil fuel to make a quick buck. Company profits > Environment, because it is the law. I mean look at this [https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.jpg https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.j...] beauty. Who's going to stop them?
  - kwhitefoot 8y ago
    > look at this [https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.j... https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.j...] beauty. Bloody hell! That's, well I can't think of any suitably damning words.
- rurban 8y ago
  In Wackersdorf also 3 people died at the fence. Ten thousands of people protested. But in the end it was pure luck to win against the energy companies - Tchernobyl. There's not enough support from the press against the dirty power lobby. It should make easy headlines for them. Dirty and deadly coal power needs to be phased out anyway according to the worlds climate goals. The dirty industries are still ruling the country, and not the middle class and civil society. It didn't went well in the thirties.
wohlergehen 8y ago
I live about 50 minutes away from this location. In my opinion it is an absolute atrocity, especially given the recent tragic death. Our politicians are discussing about phasing out coal until December (there is a commission to find suggestions), and despite this, RWE (the owner of the mine) tries to evict the occupation. It is a pure provocation since it is absolutely unclear whether clearing the forest is ultimately necessary.
larkeith 8y ago
What a fucking tragedy.
imrehg 8y ago
Reminds me of Italo Calvino's The Baron in the Trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baron_in_the_Trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baron_in_the_Trees
rurban 8y ago
Remember Wackersdorf? They only won because of Tchernobyl. Pure luck. But keep thinking of Hainburg or Zwentendorf, where people won because of their persistence and great support by the press.

94 points by extarial 8y ago

We drove through the black forest once, and we stopped off to take a picture. We walked a few feet in and that's when we saw it was all fields beyond maybe 100 feet-- the forest exists by the freeway, where we were, but it was just for show, and our imagination of this big forest beyond was just that, imagination. I'm not a environmentalist by any stretch of the imagination (for example, I think the straw law is stupid for a variety of reasons and I believe that most recycling in the US is waste, per the excellent Penn and Teller episode about it) but even I don't get or like clearcutting.

abugheratwork 8y ago
I think you might be an environmentalist. My understanding is that if you think the environment is something we should take care of, that's basically it. I guess you're probably just saying you don't identify or maybe agree with some other environmentalists, which also makes sense. The straw ban is a great example. Sometimes you can agree on what's important but disagree about what to do about it. I think this is the same complex process the word "feminism" gets put through. It's hard to find people who will outright say, "I think women should still have to ask permission from their husbands to seek work," for example. It's easy to find people who are quick to add, "... not that I'm a feminist or anything." I don't know. Words are funny. At the end of the day it probably doesn't matter whether you qualify as some kind of *-ist, but those words are one way we get convinced that other groups of people are opponents, instead of peers. (... one way that unscrupulous people intentionally convince us, depending on your level of cynicism.)
- heyyyouu 8y ago
  Great perspective. Yes, maybe you're right. I hate the -ist (and I'm not sure why, so you're on to something there), but I do like the causes (when they make sense).
- whatshisface 8y ago
  People avoid calling themselves -ist-s because when you identify yourself with a group you're bringing on to yourself a series of judgments spanning the other person's entire experience with that group. To abuse the saying, "you don't know where that's been."
  - Retra 8y ago
    Personally, I'd rather be bold and let people associate me with the title they don't like. At least then they may have an opportunity to question their assumptions.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
      I'd rather expect that they will question you long before their own assumptions.
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      If the last neo-vefaminist they met was a great person, you'd be free-riding on a reputation that you hadn't earned yet. If the last neo-vefaminist they met was a terrible person (potentially someone who was free-riding on the name), and if you call yourself a neo-vefaminist, you're communicating to them that you're a terrible person which would be incorrect because you aren't.
  - cuboidGoat 8y ago
    I do not like defining myself with '-ists'. Instead I will generally refer to the '-ism' and point out where I agree and where I differ. I have found this position has the side-effect of being an easy way to spot who is just playing team sports with philosophies. They are the folk who get really angry with people who agree with them on specifics, purely for not using a subject label self-referentially.
icc97 8y ago
You do realise that the Black Forest spans an area of 6,000km^2 that varies from 70-90% forest? [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Forest#Work_of_the_Institute_of_Applied_Geography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Forest#Work_of_the_Insti...

CydeWeys 8y ago

Really sad to think that a 12,000 year old forest is slated to be cut down just to dig up an obsolete resource that will be burnt and help destroy the environment even more, while there are other alternatives that aren't used simply because they cost a bit more.

rossdavidh 8y ago
Especially sad since nowadays it's not even especially cheaper than some other sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#/media/File:Levelized_cost_of_electricity_Germany_2018_ISE.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#...
gascan 8y ago
Sure makes decommissioning nuclear (and bringing coal back online to replace it) look better and better. Good job, environmentalists.
- bambataa 8y ago
  Do you really think environmentalists are the driving force behind this?
  - 08-15 8y ago
    Yes. The war on nuclear power started when Greenpeace won the war against atmospheric testing of nuclear explosives and needed a new enemy to ensure its continued existence. The talking points against nuclear power are made up or blown out of proportion by the treehuggers, every single one of them.
    - sien 8y ago
      There are people who term themselves 'Eco-modernists' who are almost always pro-nuclear power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecomodernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecomodernism There is also 'environmentalists for nuclear' that includes Patrick Moore, one of the co-founders of Greenpeace and James Lovelock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalists_for_Nuclear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmentalists_for_Nuclear James Hansen, possibly the original driving force behind modern greenhouse gas concerns is also pro-nuclear.

nvahalik 8y ago

Is it just me or are the people in the main photo wearing "spaceballs" helmets?

anigbrowl 8y ago
Heh :) It's a neck shield, pretty common on riot control uniforms.

gascan 8y ago

RWE has undertaken measures to mitigate the mining’s impact Mitigate the impact of clearcutting an entire forest? What a laugh.

fhbdukfrh 8y ago
Well in western Canada we quite often clear cut blocks of forest for lumber, and based on European perspectives it probably looks like an entire forest, but there are a few considerations: It's almost always younger trees (-100 years old) and often second growth (not taking old growth coastal trees) It's pretty tightly regulated in terms of ecosystem impact, sensitive locations, buffers, though lots of people disagree with what should be acceptable They understand it's in their own self interest to replant, as some of these companies are harvesting planted trees already. It's definitely not perfect, but on the whole is sustainable, and in some cases like our recent insect infestation (mostly caused by aggressive fire suppression) the preferable method to limited scale thinning
- grouseway 8y ago
  We almost always cut younger trees because there is basically almost no more old growth left. Here's a video showing logging on Vancouver Island over the last 100 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9hTF2oxLjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9hTF2oxLjo
- gascan 8y ago
  I have no problems with cutting second growth, especially timber that was planted by man. It's specifically timber companies interested in harvesting old growth that irks me, because there's hardly any left, especially in Europe. Going a little further, given that second growth harvesting is widely performed & commercially viable these days, seeking to log old growth comes across as simply looking for "easy money"- old growth hardwood fetches high prices, and you skip the work of planting.
fhbdukfrh 8y ago
Well for me it's because i care about the environment but have no interest in a dumpster-dived vegan diet. And since i live in a detached home and own 2 cars"environmentalists" don't want me in their tribe. When you're labeled you get the entire reputation of the group, and the group gets all the attributes of its members. That makes broad labels either a tough sell or pretty meaningless.

icc97 8y ago

Some of the photos of the camp [0], a blog post about the death of the activists [1]. From what I understand there was a very heavy police presence for the eviction [2]: > In Chemnitz, 560 police officers were used to contain 2500 Neo-Nazis. In HambacherForst, 3500 police officers were used to contain 250 environmentalist [0]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/127928013@N04/albums/with/72157663305061198 https://www.flickr.com/photos/127928013@N04/albums/with/7215... [1]: https://hambachforest.org/blog/2018/09/20/press-release-09-20-2018-tragic-death-in-hambach-forest/ https://hambachforest.org/blog/2018/09/20/press-release-09-2... [2]: https://twitter.com/samim/status/1040537458922999808 https://twitter.com/samim/status/1040537458922999808

zuttton 8y ago
The environmentalist are destroying the potential profit of the company that can extract a fossil fuel to make a quick buck. Company profits > Environment, because it is the law. I mean look at this [https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.jpg https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.j...] beauty. Who's going to stop them?
- kwhitefoot 8y ago
  > look at this [https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.j... https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/59315/image.j...] beauty. Bloody hell! That's, well I can't think of any suitably damning words.
rurban 8y ago
In Wackersdorf also 3 people died at the fence. Ten thousands of people protested. But in the end it was pure luck to win against the energy companies - Tchernobyl. There's not enough support from the press against the dirty power lobby. It should make easy headlines for them. Dirty and deadly coal power needs to be phased out anyway according to the worlds climate goals. The dirty industries are still ruling the country, and not the middle class and civil society. It didn't went well in the thirties.

wohlergehen 8y ago

I live about 50 minutes away from this location. In my opinion it is an absolute atrocity, especially given the recent tragic death. Our politicians are discussing about phasing out coal until December (there is a commission to find suggestions), and despite this, RWE (the owner of the mine) tries to evict the occupation. It is a pure provocation since it is absolutely unclear whether clearing the forest is ultimately necessary.

larkeith 8y ago

What a fucking tragedy.

imrehg 8y ago

Reminds me of Italo Calvino's The Baron in the Trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baron_in_the_Trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baron_in_the_Trees

rurban 8y ago

Remember Wackersdorf? They only won because of Tchernobyl. Pure luck. But keep thinking of Hainburg or Zwentendorf, where people won because of their persistence and great support by the press.