5 ms·

Well sure, they censor/manipulate their users, why wouldn’t they do the same to their employees?

skybrian 8y ago
You do realize that anything you do for your employer belongs to your employer? And that protecting trade secrets is part of practically every employer agreement? There are whistleblower exceptions, but generally, if you can't be trusted to keep secrets, you're not a professional.
- pcwalton 8y ago
  This is whistleblowing.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    That's unclear. Google hasn't launched, so they haven't done anything wrong yet, as far as users in China are concerned. This is all internal politics, which seems to be getting increasingly nasty.
    - pcwalton 8y ago
      If you leak your company's plans to rob a bank to the press, you're still a whistleblower, even if the bank hasn't been robbed yet. Whistleblowers are under no moral or professional obligation to let people become victims before coming forward. If supplying search history to a government known to imprison or torture dissidents is an immoral activity, then bringing it to light is whistleblowing. You can make a cogent argument that it's morally fine to do that, but you can't simultaneously say that facilitating spying is immoral and that it's unprofessional/immoral to reveal plans to that effect.
      - skybrian 8y ago
        That would be a better argument if they were planning to do something illegal.
        pcwalton 8y ago
        I readily acknowledge that it is perfectly legal to aid the PRC in imprisoning and torturing dissidents.
        skybrian 8y ago
        You keep making these arguments using hyperbolic examples that have little or nothing to do with what Google might (depending on how the internal politics work out) end up launching. Predicting the future is tricky, particularly when it involves the decisions of complicated political processes where the decision-makers (most likely) disagree. Plans often change. We can't possibly know what they're going to do. Maybe nothing; plenty of large corporate projects never launch.
        pcwalton 8y ago
        It's not hyperbole when this literally happened to Shi Tao, right down to the torture and imprisonment facilitated by Yahoo. This isn't some conspiracy theory: it's well-documented. I certainly hope that Google doesn't follow the same path! But US tech companies have been complicit in human rights abuses in the past, so the public has every reason to remain vigilant.
        throwaway2048 8y ago
        Do you really think PRC torturing and imprisoning dissidents is hyperbole? Really?
        skybrian 8y ago
        Yes. Of course terrible things do happen in China. But the assumption that Google's product will cause this to happen is currently just someone's imagination. The product hasn't launched yet, might not ever launch, and we don't know how the product will work if it did launch. I'd hope they're thinking about how to make sure nobody gets in trouble, but we currently don't know what precautions they came up with. There are lots of companies working in China. We know of one incident involving Yahoo. Do we assume without evidence that any other companies working there have caused dissidents to be tortured?
  - Aunche 8y ago
    Whistleblowing only applies to things that are illegal. Just because you have a personal objection to something doesn't mean you can leak whatever you want.
    - pcwalton 8y ago
      Just to be clear, you're saying that it is unprofessional to tell the press if you know your colleagues aided in the torture and imprisonment of a dissident?
      - Aunche 8y ago
        Google is doing what already happens in China. What if the torturer used Google to look up torturing techniques? We should just leak all of their source code. To go even further, the taxes China collects the imports you buy may be paying the torturer. I'm going to need you to give all your credit card information for me to make sure.
        pcwalton 8y ago
        No, sorry, you can't evade moral culpability like that. Congress was correct to call Yahoo's actions regarding Shi Tao "inexcusably negligent behavior at best, and deliberately deceptive behavior at worst".
        Aunche 8y ago
        Dragonfly is about as far removed from Shi Tao as your Chinese import purchases. And since when has Congress having a vocal opinion on anything ever been anything but pandering to their voters?
        throwaway2048 8y ago
        Having a plan to directly feed the Chinese search and user data is very far from "removed". Why do they have that plan? Because there is absolutely zero chance china would allow them to operate without it.
collias 8y ago
That fiasco earlier this year with James Damore comes to mind.
- bduerst 8y ago
  Damore was fired for perpetuating gender stereotypes. Even he confirmed it. That isn't unique to Google, and employee policy is not manipulation of search results.
  - collias 8y ago
    Do you have a source of him confirming it? Genuinely curious. I'm just going off of his interview with Joe Rogan.
    - bduerst 8y ago
      >Damore has confirmed to multiple outlets that he was terminated for “perpetuating gender stereotypes.” https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/8/16106728/google-fired-engineer-anti-diversity-memo https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/8/16106728/google-fire...
      - collias 8y ago
        Ok thanks, I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that he went on record saying something like "I'm perpetuating gender stereotypes". Instead, it looks like he's just confirmed that Google thought he was perpetuating gender stereotypes, and that's what he was fired for, which is no surprise.
        bduerst 8y ago
        It doesn't really matter what he thinks he did, because NLRB deemed it a legal reason for firing him. It's not unique to Google, and considering he's suing for discrimination against white conservative men I don't think his lawyer would let him say something like that anyways.

You do realize that anything you do for your employer belongs to your employer? And that protecting trade secrets is part of practically every employer agreement? There are whistleblower exceptions, but generally, if you can't be trusted to keep secrets, you're not a professional.

pcwalton 8y ago
This is whistleblowing.
- skybrian 8y ago
  That's unclear. Google hasn't launched, so they haven't done anything wrong yet, as far as users in China are concerned. This is all internal politics, which seems to be getting increasingly nasty.
  - pcwalton 8y ago
    If you leak your company's plans to rob a bank to the press, you're still a whistleblower, even if the bank hasn't been robbed yet. Whistleblowers are under no moral or professional obligation to let people become victims before coming forward. If supplying search history to a government known to imprison or torture dissidents is an immoral activity, then bringing it to light is whistleblowing. You can make a cogent argument that it's morally fine to do that, but you can't simultaneously say that facilitating spying is immoral and that it's unprofessional/immoral to reveal plans to that effect.
    - skybrian 8y ago
      That would be a better argument if they were planning to do something illegal.
      - pcwalton 8y ago
        I readily acknowledge that it is perfectly legal to aid the PRC in imprisoning and torturing dissidents.
        skybrian 8y ago
        You keep making these arguments using hyperbolic examples that have little or nothing to do with what Google might (depending on how the internal politics work out) end up launching. Predicting the future is tricky, particularly when it involves the decisions of complicated political processes where the decision-makers (most likely) disagree. Plans often change. We can't possibly know what they're going to do. Maybe nothing; plenty of large corporate projects never launch.
        pcwalton 8y ago
        It's not hyperbole when this literally happened to Shi Tao, right down to the torture and imprisonment facilitated by Yahoo. This isn't some conspiracy theory: it's well-documented. I certainly hope that Google doesn't follow the same path! But US tech companies have been complicit in human rights abuses in the past, so the public has every reason to remain vigilant.
        throwaway2048 8y ago
        Do you really think PRC torturing and imprisoning dissidents is hyperbole? Really?
        skybrian 8y ago
        Yes. Of course terrible things do happen in China. But the assumption that Google's product will cause this to happen is currently just someone's imagination. The product hasn't launched yet, might not ever launch, and we don't know how the product will work if it did launch. I'd hope they're thinking about how to make sure nobody gets in trouble, but we currently don't know what precautions they came up with. There are lots of companies working in China. We know of one incident involving Yahoo. Do we assume without evidence that any other companies working there have caused dissidents to be tortured?
- Aunche 8y ago
  Whistleblowing only applies to things that are illegal. Just because you have a personal objection to something doesn't mean you can leak whatever you want.
  - pcwalton 8y ago
    Just to be clear, you're saying that it is unprofessional to tell the press if you know your colleagues aided in the torture and imprisonment of a dissident?
    - Aunche 8y ago
      Google is doing what already happens in China. What if the torturer used Google to look up torturing techniques? We should just leak all of their source code. To go even further, the taxes China collects the imports you buy may be paying the torturer. I'm going to need you to give all your credit card information for me to make sure.
      - pcwalton 8y ago
        No, sorry, you can't evade moral culpability like that. Congress was correct to call Yahoo's actions regarding Shi Tao "inexcusably negligent behavior at best, and deliberately deceptive behavior at worst".
        Aunche 8y ago
        Dragonfly is about as far removed from Shi Tao as your Chinese import purchases. And since when has Congress having a vocal opinion on anything ever been anything but pandering to their voters?
        throwaway2048 8y ago
        Having a plan to directly feed the Chinese search and user data is very far from "removed". Why do they have that plan? Because there is absolutely zero chance china would allow them to operate without it.

collias 8y ago

That fiasco earlier this year with James Damore comes to mind.

bduerst 8y ago
Damore was fired for perpetuating gender stereotypes. Even he confirmed it. That isn't unique to Google, and employee policy is not manipulation of search results.
- collias 8y ago
  Do you have a source of him confirming it? Genuinely curious. I'm just going off of his interview with Joe Rogan.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    >Damore has confirmed to multiple outlets that he was terminated for “perpetuating gender stereotypes.” https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/8/16106728/google-fired-engineer-anti-diversity-memo https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/8/16106728/google-fire...
    - collias 8y ago
      Ok thanks, I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant that he went on record saying something like "I'm perpetuating gender stereotypes". Instead, it looks like he's just confirmed that Google thought he was perpetuating gender stereotypes, and that's what he was fired for, which is no surprise.
      - bduerst 8y ago
        It doesn't really matter what he thinks he did, because NLRB deemed it a legal reason for firing him. It's not unique to Google, and considering he's suing for discrimination against white conservative men I don't think his lawyer would let him say something like that anyways.