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I was just talking to my dad about this. He's in his 60s and says he can remember a time when plastics were relatively rare. As a kid, his milk came in glass bo

I was just talking to my dad about this. He's in his 60s and says he can remember a time when plastics were relatively rare. As a kid, his milk came in glass bottles which were returned, sanitized, refilled, and re-delivered. There was no permanent waste in that process that he can recall. So, within one generation, we went from that to the average house on my street discarding a massive rolling trash-can worth of plastic every week (roughly). I try hard to reduce my family's contribution to the problem, but it's really tough. For example, we buy organic produce, and every single one has plastic stickers, rubber bands, and labels. It's pretty depressing.

mverwijs 8y ago
So you're saying we can alter our complete structure within the space of one generation? That is pretty uplifting actually.
- fosco 8y ago
  technically yes! but it requires business incentives. I think whole foods lead the way by giving 5 cent discounts for bringing your own bags - at least they used to - do not live near one anymore :( by making plastic more expensive either by taxation or by giving incentives to reuse would encourage businesses to take action
  - fyfy18 8y ago
    Most EU countries have mandated charges for plastic carrier bags in supermarkets - but it doesn’t do anything to reduce the plastic packaging food already comes in.
briHass 8y ago
> There was no permanent waste in that process that he can recall. Except for the energy wasted to manufacture the glass bottle, clean it, transport it back to be cleaned, and the increased weight/fragility over a similar plastic container. For example, the reusable canvas shopping bag must be reused 170+ times to actually break even with the environmental impact of choosing it over plastic bags. By the way, that's without washing it.
- legulere 8y ago
  Reusable glass bottles still fare better ecologically, if they are filled close by, which goes against the centralisation driven by our economy.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    I'm not sure its an unalloyed gain. It takes considerable energy to sanitize food-grade bottles for re-use. That's not free to the environment.
    - Avamander 8y ago
      Could be done with water and renewable energy. Recycling water is way easier than plastics.
      - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        The magic wand 'renewable energy' doesn't make every energy-intensive task green. Going back to sanitizing every container used in a country is a huge energy sink - probably larger than all green energy there is.
        Avamander 8y ago
        And going back and recycling every piece of plastic bottle isn't a huge energy sink taking more than all the green energy there is, isn't going to produce more waste and require new raw materials?
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        Nope. Because vendors switched to plastic, because it costs less (in energy etc)
        Avamander 8y ago
GW150914 8y ago
It’s relatively easy to introduce something, but much harder to take it away unless its usefulness has passed.
Spooky23 8y ago
I actually get milk delivered in those glass bottles. It’s great, and I wish it was more broadly available for other products. My grandparents spoke to all of the different services available in our small city. Instead of paper towels, rags was were sold and collected off of your porch. The milk guy sold eggs and break as well. Even in the market, plastic is often an inferior packing medium. Potatoes stayed fresher in paper bags and mold out in plastic.
escherplex 8y ago
Compound that with the fact that plastic-softeners like bisphenols, et al, were used without knowledge of their long physiological effects. Who knows what impact that will have have on general health in the long run.
stephengillie 8y ago
> milk came in glass bottles which were returned, sanitized, refilled, and re-delivered. My mom remembers this time, too. And I've seen these in at least one grocery store in Seattle. In researching[0], it turns out the only farm currently providing milk in glass bottles near Seattle is in Lynden, WA - about 170 miles north, near the Canadian border. So not only do the glass bottles weigh more and need more energy to transport, they're so rare around Seattle that they must be transported 10x further than milk encased in paper or plastic. Additionally, there is some cost and difficulty in owning, cleaning, and managing an inventory of glass bottles. There is only one producer of glass bottles in North America, Stap said, in Ontario, Canada. Another challenge of bottling in glass is keeping an inventory to accommodate the bottle return process and the reality that some bottles never come back. This learning curve added another aspect of trial for Twin Brook Creamery, and for every one bottle they send to a grocery store Stap said they need from eight to 10 bottles at the farm. While researching this, I found this from another local farm - they view milk boxes very positively for numerous reasons, and suggest recycling them: Cardboard cartons are the best packaging for fresh, high quality milk. Cartons protect milk from harmful exterior light, and also retain the temperature better than plastic or glass. Our milk cartons are also recyclable. Using cardboard is the best material for packaging milk, and it's the right decision for the environment.[1] [0]http://grownorthwest.com/2012/12/twin-brook-creamery-by-the-glass-bottle/ http://grownorthwest.com/2012/12/twin-brook-creamery-by-the-... [1]https://www.smithbrothersfarms.com/faq https://www.smithbrothersfarms.com/faq

mverwijs 8y ago

So you're saying we can alter our complete structure within the space of one generation? That is pretty uplifting actually.

fosco 8y ago
technically yes! but it requires business incentives. I think whole foods lead the way by giving 5 cent discounts for bringing your own bags - at least they used to - do not live near one anymore :( by making plastic more expensive either by taxation or by giving incentives to reuse would encourage businesses to take action
- fyfy18 8y ago
  Most EU countries have mandated charges for plastic carrier bags in supermarkets - but it doesn’t do anything to reduce the plastic packaging food already comes in.

briHass 8y ago

> There was no permanent waste in that process that he can recall. Except for the energy wasted to manufacture the glass bottle, clean it, transport it back to be cleaned, and the increased weight/fragility over a similar plastic container. For example, the reusable canvas shopping bag must be reused 170+ times to actually break even with the environmental impact of choosing it over plastic bags. By the way, that's without washing it.

legulere 8y ago
Reusable glass bottles still fare better ecologically, if they are filled close by, which goes against the centralisation driven by our economy.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  I'm not sure its an unalloyed gain. It takes considerable energy to sanitize food-grade bottles for re-use. That's not free to the environment.
  - Avamander 8y ago
    Could be done with water and renewable energy. Recycling water is way easier than plastics.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      The magic wand 'renewable energy' doesn't make every energy-intensive task green. Going back to sanitizing every container used in a country is a huge energy sink - probably larger than all green energy there is.
      - Avamander 8y ago
        And going back and recycling every piece of plastic bottle isn't a huge energy sink taking more than all the green energy there is, isn't going to produce more waste and require new raw materials?
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        Nope. Because vendors switched to plastic, because it costs less (in energy etc)
        Avamander 8y ago

GW150914 8y ago

It’s relatively easy to introduce something, but much harder to take it away unless its usefulness has passed.

Spooky23 8y ago

I actually get milk delivered in those glass bottles. It’s great, and I wish it was more broadly available for other products. My grandparents spoke to all of the different services available in our small city. Instead of paper towels, rags was were sold and collected off of your porch. The milk guy sold eggs and break as well. Even in the market, plastic is often an inferior packing medium. Potatoes stayed fresher in paper bags and mold out in plastic.

escherplex 8y ago

Compound that with the fact that plastic-softeners like bisphenols, et al, were used without knowledge of their long physiological effects. Who knows what impact that will have have on general health in the long run.

stephengillie 8y ago

> milk came in glass bottles which were returned, sanitized, refilled, and re-delivered. My mom remembers this time, too. And I've seen these in at least one grocery store in Seattle. In researching[0], it turns out the only farm currently providing milk in glass bottles near Seattle is in Lynden, WA - about 170 miles north, near the Canadian border. So not only do the glass bottles weigh more and need more energy to transport, they're so rare around Seattle that they must be transported 10x further than milk encased in paper or plastic. Additionally, there is some cost and difficulty in owning, cleaning, and managing an inventory of glass bottles. There is only one producer of glass bottles in North America, Stap said, in Ontario, Canada. Another challenge of bottling in glass is keeping an inventory to accommodate the bottle return process and the reality that some bottles never come back. This learning curve added another aspect of trial for Twin Brook Creamery, and for every one bottle they send to a grocery store Stap said they need from eight to 10 bottles at the farm. While researching this, I found this from another local farm - they view milk boxes very positively for numerous reasons, and suggest recycling them: Cardboard cartons are the best packaging for fresh, high quality milk. Cartons protect milk from harmful exterior light, and also retain the temperature better than plastic or glass. Our milk cartons are also recyclable. Using cardboard is the best material for packaging milk, and it's the right decision for the environment.[1] [0]http://grownorthwest.com/2012/12/twin-brook-creamery-by-the-glass-bottle/ http://grownorthwest.com/2012/12/twin-brook-creamery-by-the-... [1]https://www.smithbrothersfarms.com/faq https://www.smithbrothersfarms.com/faq