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Capitalism was the cause of extreme poverty, from enclosure movements to slavery to industrialization to colonialism. To say that capitalism is to thank for lif

Capitalism was the cause of extreme poverty, from enclosure movements to slavery to industrialization to colonialism. To say that capitalism is to thank for lifting people out of the tragedy is hilarious. Especially as capitalism causes 8 individuals to be richer than half the world.

07d046 8y ago
I'm no historian, but I think extreme poverty has existed for a lot longer than the idea of capitalism.
- lkuty 8y ago
  Sure but now we have a system that is very well optimized to allow a few people to get super rich at the cost of the whole world safey (them included).
- FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
  And yet we choose to congratulate a system that willingly put people into extreme poverty for centuries for finally giving a few scraps back. We could have had a system which lifted people out of poverty, but no, we went for slavery and colonialism and all that fun stuff. And we continue to do that. Half of America is one missed paycheck away from financial ruin, and that is the richest country that has ever existed. But sure, lets praise capitalism!
lkuty 8y ago
Yes indeed. World Bank... We can stop reading the rest of the title and avoid reading the article entirely.
_louisr_ 8y ago
It's not hilarious to thank Capitalism for lifting people out of tragedy - It's what has happened. Coal power plants in low income countries; iPhone factories creating an economic explosion in China; T-Shirt factories in Bangladesh. All of these things are the result of Capitalism and the free market, and participating countries are doing well. They are accepting some environmental damage, though. Consider that the company making the most progress in sustainable energy is, well, a capitalist company. Alternate systems have not worked out so well, as you know. Communist planned economies led to the starvation of tens of millions, and that number increases to hundreds of millions when you add the persecution, jailing, and sometimes immediate execution of citizens of Communists states that had a history of political activity of the wrong sort. Recall that in Soviet Russia it was beneficial for each individual to "inform" on their neighbours to the KGB, so that they could claim their apartment. And it's suspected that Vladmir Putin is actually the richest person in the world. Colonialism and slavery are pretty rough, but they are not a product of capitalism as much as a product of human malevolence and brutality. I'm sure you would find evidence of colonialism and slavery in pre-civilization times and in non-capitalist societies, so that argument falls flat. Also, regarding the 8 richest individuals - If the rest of the world is getting on OK, why should we not have a couple of super rich people around? Why is that inherently bad? Why do _you_ think you should have a say of where that money belongs, exactly?
- 4lejandrito 8y ago
  "...and that number increases to hundreds of millions when you add the persecution, jailing, and sometimes immediate execution of citizens of Communists states that had a history of political activity of the wrong sort..." Why is that not a product of human malevolence and brutality? I'm sure you would find evidence of persecution, jailing and sometimes execution of citizens in pre-civilization.
  - _louisr_ 8y ago
    That was the product of necessary ideological conformity for their proposed system to work. Everyone who is not on board with the communist system could bring it down, so they shot dissenters. In Capitalism you can believe whatever you want to believe so long as you respect the rights of the individuals around you, and you don't incite violence, and a couple of other conditions.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    Communism is about centralized control of a population. The central authority determines what you get, what you pay, what you do, and so on. Capitalism, by contrast, is a decentralized system. What you pay for something is little more than a product of the market. And you're free to do anything you want, so long as there is a demand for it. Imagine I want to send a rocket to Mars. And then I go and check the prices and see these companies want hundreds of millions of dollars to launch one. That makes me confused. The materials to make that rocket cost at most on the order of tens of millions of dollars, and labor certainly doesn't explain the rest. I bet I could make one for less. And it turns out I can. Then a couple of decades later, I'm the biggest rocket supplier on the planet. In a communist system your only option there would be to try to appeal to the bureaucracy, and if you're lucky you might eventually, some years later, get a reply to your filing of form FNE-34821.43-z: 'We disagree. Thanks for your input, comrade.' Of course this probably isn't a fair comparison. In a communist system nobody would ever have the resources to even dream of being able to do something like launch rockets to Mars. Instead you'd have to beg old entrenched government bureaucrats to do it. I'm wouldn't hold my breath. This notion of an economic system being driven by the people instead of being driven by the government is why in a capitalist system you're generally free to argue for a communist system - with some unfortunate exceptions, yet in a communist system arguing for capitalism is often enough to get you 'disappeared' - with some fortunate exceptions. Maybe even more visibly in a capitalist system you could even start a communistic system. Want to buy 5000 acres of land and start communitopia? Feel free to! Want to buy 5,000 acres of land and start capitalitopia in a communist nation? It's simply not possible.
Certhas 8y ago
> Capitalism was the cause of extreme poverty This is demonstrably false. Extreme poverty was simply the state of the world until a few centuries back. In 1820 more than 90% of the world was living in extreme poverty. It's absurd to claim a single diffuse concept like capitalism was responsible for lifting people out of poverty, it's just as absurd to claim it was responsible for putting them there.

07d046 8y ago

I'm no historian, but I think extreme poverty has existed for a lot longer than the idea of capitalism.

lkuty 8y ago
Sure but now we have a system that is very well optimized to allow a few people to get super rich at the cost of the whole world safey (them included).
FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
And yet we choose to congratulate a system that willingly put people into extreme poverty for centuries for finally giving a few scraps back. We could have had a system which lifted people out of poverty, but no, we went for slavery and colonialism and all that fun stuff. And we continue to do that. Half of America is one missed paycheck away from financial ruin, and that is the richest country that has ever existed. But sure, lets praise capitalism!

lkuty 8y ago

Yes indeed. World Bank... We can stop reading the rest of the title and avoid reading the article entirely.

_louisr_ 8y ago

It's not hilarious to thank Capitalism for lifting people out of tragedy - It's what has happened. Coal power plants in low income countries; iPhone factories creating an economic explosion in China; T-Shirt factories in Bangladesh. All of these things are the result of Capitalism and the free market, and participating countries are doing well. They are accepting some environmental damage, though. Consider that the company making the most progress in sustainable energy is, well, a capitalist company. Alternate systems have not worked out so well, as you know. Communist planned economies led to the starvation of tens of millions, and that number increases to hundreds of millions when you add the persecution, jailing, and sometimes immediate execution of citizens of Communists states that had a history of political activity of the wrong sort. Recall that in Soviet Russia it was beneficial for each individual to "inform" on their neighbours to the KGB, so that they could claim their apartment. And it's suspected that Vladmir Putin is actually the richest person in the world. Colonialism and slavery are pretty rough, but they are not a product of capitalism as much as a product of human malevolence and brutality. I'm sure you would find evidence of colonialism and slavery in pre-civilization times and in non-capitalist societies, so that argument falls flat. Also, regarding the 8 richest individuals - If the rest of the world is getting on OK, why should we not have a couple of super rich people around? Why is that inherently bad? Why do _you_ think you should have a say of where that money belongs, exactly?

4lejandrito 8y ago
"...and that number increases to hundreds of millions when you add the persecution, jailing, and sometimes immediate execution of citizens of Communists states that had a history of political activity of the wrong sort..." Why is that not a product of human malevolence and brutality? I'm sure you would find evidence of persecution, jailing and sometimes execution of citizens in pre-civilization.
- _louisr_ 8y ago
  That was the product of necessary ideological conformity for their proposed system to work. Everyone who is not on board with the communist system could bring it down, so they shot dissenters. In Capitalism you can believe whatever you want to believe so long as you respect the rights of the individuals around you, and you don't incite violence, and a couple of other conditions.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  Communism is about centralized control of a population. The central authority determines what you get, what you pay, what you do, and so on. Capitalism, by contrast, is a decentralized system. What you pay for something is little more than a product of the market. And you're free to do anything you want, so long as there is a demand for it. Imagine I want to send a rocket to Mars. And then I go and check the prices and see these companies want hundreds of millions of dollars to launch one. That makes me confused. The materials to make that rocket cost at most on the order of tens of millions of dollars, and labor certainly doesn't explain the rest. I bet I could make one for less. And it turns out I can. Then a couple of decades later, I'm the biggest rocket supplier on the planet. In a communist system your only option there would be to try to appeal to the bureaucracy, and if you're lucky you might eventually, some years later, get a reply to your filing of form FNE-34821.43-z: 'We disagree. Thanks for your input, comrade.' Of course this probably isn't a fair comparison. In a communist system nobody would ever have the resources to even dream of being able to do something like launch rockets to Mars. Instead you'd have to beg old entrenched government bureaucrats to do it. I'm wouldn't hold my breath. This notion of an economic system being driven by the people instead of being driven by the government is why in a capitalist system you're generally free to argue for a communist system - with some unfortunate exceptions, yet in a communist system arguing for capitalism is often enough to get you 'disappeared' - with some fortunate exceptions. Maybe even more visibly in a capitalist system you could even start a communistic system. Want to buy 5000 acres of land and start communitopia? Feel free to! Want to buy 5,000 acres of land and start capitalitopia in a communist nation? It's simply not possible.

Certhas 8y ago

> Capitalism was the cause of extreme poverty This is demonstrably false. Extreme poverty was simply the state of the world until a few centuries back. In 1820 more than 90% of the world was living in extreme poverty. It's absurd to claim a single diffuse concept like capitalism was responsible for lifting people out of poverty, it's just as absurd to claim it was responsible for putting them there.