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I agree. We should be careful to condemn too quickly a current system. It reminds me of when a new developer comes to a code base and says it needs to be thro

I agree. We should be careful to condemn too quickly a current system. It reminds me of when a new developer comes to a code base and says it needs to be thrown out and rewritten completely. Rewrites and revolutions are costly and shortsighted. Let's first try to figure out what is right with what's here because usually it's like it is for a reason.

FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
There is one thing “right” about capitalism and that is a huge increase in consumer goods. Shame it is also literally boiling the world we live on but hey, for a short while we could get new iPhones every two years!
- _louisr_ 8y ago
  Did the Communists not build tanks or burn coal? Is it Capitalism, or is it the human desire to take the path of least resistance; is it not human to consume ready-made energy that has been subsidized by the carbon capacity of the oceans and atmosphere?
  - inawarminister 8y ago
    Indeed. The Aral Sea being drained under Soviet Union was much more immediately catastrophic to the local environment that what the Capitalist world economy is doing that I know of. Of course, global warming, but it took decades if not centuries. [0] http://www.columbia.edu/~tmt2120/introduction.htm http://www.columbia.edu/~tmt2120/introduction.htm
  - FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
    Ah yes. Because clearly the choices are capitalism or Soviet Union dictatorships.
    - golergka 8y ago
      That's what history of 20th century shows us, yes.
    - simonh 8y ago
      I'll bite. What other alternative(s) would you propose? We frequently see cheap shots at capitalism, where on the same issues the major alternatives attempted in the 20th century were all actually far, far worse. It would be nice to seem some positive contributions on this issue for a change.
      - legatus 8y ago
        There are different examples of radical socialist societies in history, too bad all of them were oppressed by all too powerful neighbours. If you like Orwell, you might like reading "Homage to Catalonia", his experience fighting for Republican Spain in the Civil War. The CNT-FAI supported a radical socialist society, in particular, an anarcho-syndicalist one. Another example is the Free Territory of Ukraine, during the russian civil war. In the early twenties it was conquered by the bolsheviks, since they didn't want Makhno, the military leader of this anarchist society, gaining popular support outside Ukraine. There are other examples: in Korea during the thirties... There are alternatives to both capitalism and Communism (in the Soviet Union sense). The fact that those alternatives aren't considered is caused by lots of propaganda against leftist ideal, take for example the two red scares.
        ramblerman 8y ago
        Read "Road to Wigan pier" by Orwell. He became seriously disillusioned with socialist ideals later on in his life. And famously said "Socialists don't care about the poor, they just hate the rich"
        legatus 8y ago
        In "Why I write" (1946), Orwell states that “Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.” Could you mind explaining, if that's the case, how Orwell was disillusioned with socialism, unless you mean the socialists of the PSUC? EDIT: Found this quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-full-Orwell-quote-that-is-often-paraphrased-that-middle-class-socialists-don-t-care-about-the-poor-they-just-hate-the-rich-Where-was-it-written https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-full-Orwell-quote-that-is-o... The quote you provided is a summary by a person that is definitely right or at least alt-right leaning, so he is definitely heavily biased. In any case, as you can read in the quoted passage (this time the real thing), Orwell criticizes the "book socialist" or the orthodox marxist, which he already did in Homage to Catalonia. He's criticizing the soviet union's socialism, not the CNT-FAI's one.

FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago

There is one thing “right” about capitalism and that is a huge increase in consumer goods. Shame it is also literally boiling the world we live on but hey, for a short while we could get new iPhones every two years!

_louisr_ 8y ago
Did the Communists not build tanks or burn coal? Is it Capitalism, or is it the human desire to take the path of least resistance; is it not human to consume ready-made energy that has been subsidized by the carbon capacity of the oceans and atmosphere?
- inawarminister 8y ago
  Indeed. The Aral Sea being drained under Soviet Union was much more immediately catastrophic to the local environment that what the Capitalist world economy is doing that I know of. Of course, global warming, but it took decades if not centuries. [0] http://www.columbia.edu/~tmt2120/introduction.htm http://www.columbia.edu/~tmt2120/introduction.htm
- FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
  Ah yes. Because clearly the choices are capitalism or Soviet Union dictatorships.
  - golergka 8y ago
    That's what history of 20th century shows us, yes.
  - simonh 8y ago
    I'll bite. What other alternative(s) would you propose? We frequently see cheap shots at capitalism, where on the same issues the major alternatives attempted in the 20th century were all actually far, far worse. It would be nice to seem some positive contributions on this issue for a change.
    - legatus 8y ago
      There are different examples of radical socialist societies in history, too bad all of them were oppressed by all too powerful neighbours. If you like Orwell, you might like reading "Homage to Catalonia", his experience fighting for Republican Spain in the Civil War. The CNT-FAI supported a radical socialist society, in particular, an anarcho-syndicalist one. Another example is the Free Territory of Ukraine, during the russian civil war. In the early twenties it was conquered by the bolsheviks, since they didn't want Makhno, the military leader of this anarchist society, gaining popular support outside Ukraine. There are other examples: in Korea during the thirties... There are alternatives to both capitalism and Communism (in the Soviet Union sense). The fact that those alternatives aren't considered is caused by lots of propaganda against leftist ideal, take for example the two red scares.
      - ramblerman 8y ago
        Read "Road to Wigan pier" by Orwell. He became seriously disillusioned with socialist ideals later on in his life. And famously said "Socialists don't care about the poor, they just hate the rich"
        legatus 8y ago
        In "Why I write" (1946), Orwell states that “Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.” Could you mind explaining, if that's the case, how Orwell was disillusioned with socialism, unless you mean the socialists of the PSUC? EDIT: Found this quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-full-Orwell-quote-that-is-often-paraphrased-that-middle-class-socialists-don-t-care-about-the-poor-they-just-hate-the-rich-Where-was-it-written https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-full-Orwell-quote-that-is-o... The quote you provided is a summary by a person that is definitely right or at least alt-right leaning, so he is definitely heavily biased. In any case, as you can read in the quoted passage (this time the real thing), Orwell criticizes the "book socialist" or the orthodox marxist, which he already did in Homage to Catalonia. He's criticizing the soviet union's socialism, not the CNT-FAI's one.