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> However, all the people who won did deserve it, which keeps the prize from being considered a joke, unlike literature (Bob Dylan) and peace (Obama) Bob Dylan

> However, all the people who won did deserve it, which keeps the prize from being considered a joke, unlike literature (Bob Dylan) and peace (Obama) Bob Dylan is one of the most influential songwriters and lyricists of the last 50+ years. The idea that "literature" is solely contained in novels and poetry compilations was abandoned decades ago. Dylan is a poet, and he's made countless contributions to literature in his lifetime. If you're going to criticize the Nobel Prize in Literature, there are sufficient grounds to do so, given the current scandal within the Swedish Academy. But you can't claim that awarding Dylan somehow brought disrepute to the award itself.

leephillips 8y ago
Yes, I can, because I've heard and read his lyrics. As Kurt Vonnegut has said, they are gibberish. https://lee-phillips.org/dylanreally/ https://lee-phillips.org/dylanreally/
- cuboidGoat 8y ago
  Well, the lyrics of Bob Dylan have clearly elicited a strong emotional reaction from you, if nothing else, given you have bothered to make an anti-fan page about them on your personal website. :) I also love Vonnegut, but I wouldn't automatically trust his judgement on verse. Plus a lot of literature buffs claim Vonnegut is nonsense, so he isn't particularly good backup in that field. Literature is nonsense really, as a definition. I feel it is just a word for people who feel they are above admitting that they love to be entertained by stories.
  - leephillips 8y ago
    I don't think Vonnegut is a great writer. But I like the guy, and I just happen to agree with him on this. Since he's held in high regard around here, he's a good buttress for my subjective opinion.
    - cuboidGoat 8y ago
      Of course you know this bit of doggerel verse, everyone does; ... “There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief “There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth None of them along the line know what any of it is worth” “No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke “There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke But you and I, we’ve been through that, and this is not our fate So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late” All along the watchtower, princes kept the view While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl ... Have you ever heard it with the lines reversed though? ... Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too All along the watchtower, princes kept the view So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late” But you and I, we’ve been through that, and this is not our fate “There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke “No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke None of them along the line know what any of it is worth” Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth “There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief “There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief ... Now you have to admit, that is not the work of someone who doesn't know what they are doing with language, irrespective of whether or not you personally like it.
      - leephillips 8y ago
        I think I've heard that song. Interesting what you point out, although I'm not moved to admit what you claim I have to admit. I think the lines are awkward and the writing kind of crude, like Dylan generally. For example, writing "did growl" rather than "growled" in an attempt to add more feet to the line is highschool level. Given all that, the imagery is far more interesting than in the typical rock song, which makes one perk up on first hearing.
        cuboidGoat 8y ago
        I'd assume 'wildcat did growl' was chosen for for the use of staccato to create rhythm from the consonants, which would be absent with 'wildcat growled', rather than to add more feet to the line, but hey, we are just layering ephemera on ephemera here.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  From your blog: >"But reflect that neither Vladimir Nabokov nor James Joyce, the best writers in English since Shakespeare, were considered worthy enough for the literature prize, and any illusion that quality is of overwhelming importance to the committee evaporates" So let me get this straight, you think think Dylan's lyrics are gibberish but you understand Joyce just fine? This is patently absurd. Are you just trolling? Finnegan's Wake is perhaps the most famous piece of gibberish ever published. It's widely thought to be incomprehensible even by scholars. Lets take a typical passage from Finnegan's Wake: "Otherways wesways like that provost scoffing bedoueen the jebel and the jpysian sea. Cropherb the crunch-bracken shall decide. Then we’ll know if the feast is a flyday. She has a gift of seek on site and she allcasually ansars helpers, the dreamydeary. Heed! Heed ! It may half been a missfired brick, as some say, or it mought have been due to a collupsus of his back promises, as others looked at it." How's that not gibberish? You can't have any idea what any of that means. The book was so inscrutable it came with its own glossary. You "get" that passage but you can't understand the lyrics to "Blowing in the Wind" or "Mr Tambourine Man"? Right. That's laughable. And honestly who care's what Kurt Vonnegut said about Dylan in an interview in Hustler magazine. It's hard to think of a more disreputable source of meaningful discussion than a Larry Flynt publication.
  - leephillips 8y ago
    Most of your comment is a kind of straw man. I said that Nabokov and Joyce are the best writers in English since Shakespeare. I certainly was not trolling - that is my sincere opinion. But that doesn't mean that I like everything they wrote. I don't like everything Shakespeare wrote, either. I never seriously tried to read F.W. after dipping briefly into it a couple of times (but even the your excerpt has a kind of curious charm). But you may be aware that Joyce wrote some other stuff. Why is it important to whom Vonnegut was speaking? I just happen to agree with him.
    - bogomipz 8y ago
      No, exactly none of my comment is strawman. To wit: You offered up a link to a personal blog post in order to support your assertion that Dylan has brought "disrepute" to the Nobel Prize for Literature and how his lyrics could be considered gibberish. In the same blog post you use James Joyce for contrast - as a literary figure who is worthy of the Nobel. >"But you may be aware that Joyce wrote some other stuff." Of course he did. We could talk about Ulysses as well. This book is only slightly more approachable than Finnegans Wake. Ulysses is considered one of the most difficult books to read and few people seem to finish it. The overwhelming majority of Bob Dylan's lyrics could be read, pronounced and interpreted by anyone with a 7th grade reading comprehension. I have simply pointed out the absurdity of your statements and the flimsiness of your arguments. It's fine if you don't like Dylan you are entitled to that but if you are going claim that his lyrics are "gibberish" or that he has brought "disrepute" to the Nobel Prize you should be able to convincing arguments and you have not. Not even close.

leephillips 8y ago

Yes, I can, because I've heard and read his lyrics. As Kurt Vonnegut has said, they are gibberish. https://lee-phillips.org/dylanreally/ https://lee-phillips.org/dylanreally/

cuboidGoat 8y ago
Well, the lyrics of Bob Dylan have clearly elicited a strong emotional reaction from you, if nothing else, given you have bothered to make an anti-fan page about them on your personal website. :) I also love Vonnegut, but I wouldn't automatically trust his judgement on verse. Plus a lot of literature buffs claim Vonnegut is nonsense, so he isn't particularly good backup in that field. Literature is nonsense really, as a definition. I feel it is just a word for people who feel they are above admitting that they love to be entertained by stories.
- leephillips 8y ago
  I don't think Vonnegut is a great writer. But I like the guy, and I just happen to agree with him on this. Since he's held in high regard around here, he's a good buttress for my subjective opinion.
  - cuboidGoat 8y ago
    Of course you know this bit of doggerel verse, everyone does; ... “There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief “There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth None of them along the line know what any of it is worth” “No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke “There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke But you and I, we’ve been through that, and this is not our fate So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late” All along the watchtower, princes kept the view While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl ... Have you ever heard it with the lines reversed though? ... Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too All along the watchtower, princes kept the view So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late” But you and I, we’ve been through that, and this is not our fate “There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke “No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke None of them along the line know what any of it is worth” Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth “There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief “There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief ... Now you have to admit, that is not the work of someone who doesn't know what they are doing with language, irrespective of whether or not you personally like it.
    - leephillips 8y ago
      I think I've heard that song. Interesting what you point out, although I'm not moved to admit what you claim I have to admit. I think the lines are awkward and the writing kind of crude, like Dylan generally. For example, writing "did growl" rather than "growled" in an attempt to add more feet to the line is highschool level. Given all that, the imagery is far more interesting than in the typical rock song, which makes one perk up on first hearing.
      - cuboidGoat 8y ago
        I'd assume 'wildcat did growl' was chosen for for the use of staccato to create rhythm from the consonants, which would be absent with 'wildcat growled', rather than to add more feet to the line, but hey, we are just layering ephemera on ephemera here.
bogomipz 8y ago
From your blog: >"But reflect that neither Vladimir Nabokov nor James Joyce, the best writers in English since Shakespeare, were considered worthy enough for the literature prize, and any illusion that quality is of overwhelming importance to the committee evaporates" So let me get this straight, you think think Dylan's lyrics are gibberish but you understand Joyce just fine? This is patently absurd. Are you just trolling? Finnegan's Wake is perhaps the most famous piece of gibberish ever published. It's widely thought to be incomprehensible even by scholars. Lets take a typical passage from Finnegan's Wake: "Otherways wesways like that provost scoffing bedoueen the jebel and the jpysian sea. Cropherb the crunch-bracken shall decide. Then we’ll know if the feast is a flyday. She has a gift of seek on site and she allcasually ansars helpers, the dreamydeary. Heed! Heed ! It may half been a missfired brick, as some say, or it mought have been due to a collupsus of his back promises, as others looked at it." How's that not gibberish? You can't have any idea what any of that means. The book was so inscrutable it came with its own glossary. You "get" that passage but you can't understand the lyrics to "Blowing in the Wind" or "Mr Tambourine Man"? Right. That's laughable. And honestly who care's what Kurt Vonnegut said about Dylan in an interview in Hustler magazine. It's hard to think of a more disreputable source of meaningful discussion than a Larry Flynt publication.
- leephillips 8y ago
  Most of your comment is a kind of straw man. I said that Nabokov and Joyce are the best writers in English since Shakespeare. I certainly was not trolling - that is my sincere opinion. But that doesn't mean that I like everything they wrote. I don't like everything Shakespeare wrote, either. I never seriously tried to read F.W. after dipping briefly into it a couple of times (but even the your excerpt has a kind of curious charm). But you may be aware that Joyce wrote some other stuff. Why is it important to whom Vonnegut was speaking? I just happen to agree with him.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    No, exactly none of my comment is strawman. To wit: You offered up a link to a personal blog post in order to support your assertion that Dylan has brought "disrepute" to the Nobel Prize for Literature and how his lyrics could be considered gibberish. In the same blog post you use James Joyce for contrast - as a literary figure who is worthy of the Nobel. >"But you may be aware that Joyce wrote some other stuff." Of course he did. We could talk about Ulysses as well. This book is only slightly more approachable than Finnegans Wake. Ulysses is considered one of the most difficult books to read and few people seem to finish it. The overwhelming majority of Bob Dylan's lyrics could be read, pronounced and interpreted by anyone with a 7th grade reading comprehension. I have simply pointed out the absurdity of your statements and the flimsiness of your arguments. It's fine if you don't like Dylan you are entitled to that but if you are going claim that his lyrics are "gibberish" or that he has brought "disrepute" to the Nobel Prize you should be able to convincing arguments and you have not. Not even close.