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Knowing something of some of these cases and things like the Innocence Project, it is actually much more frightening that you don't hear these stories coming ou

Knowing something of some of these cases and things like the Innocence Project, it is actually much more frightening that you don't hear these stories coming out of other countries. Wikipedia has a page on this [1], and picking France, there are six examples listed, including Joan of Arc and the Dreyfus affair. I find it almost inconceivable that outside of those six cases there have not been any other wrongful convictions. The most generous interpretation is that the French penal system is more humane than the US, and sentences shorter, so that wrongful convictions don't necessarily destroy lives, and thus overturning convictions is not a priority either for activist groups, politicians, or law enforcement. On the other extreme is the idea that challenging verdicts and the appeals process for introducing new exculpatory evidence after convictions is either too difficult or inaccessible. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice...

_jal 8y ago
> The most generous interpretation is that the French penal system is more humane than the US That is indeed generous. French prisons are notoriously awful. A bit of a catalogue of official condemnations is available at the Wikipedia page[1], but more telling are the many, many anecdotes of people who have done time in them. Of course nasty prisons doesn't mean that the administration of the courts isn't impeccable, and I am hardly an expert, but I rather doubt it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_conditions_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_conditions_in_France
fastball 8y ago
It's similar to how racism is presented. Many people talk about how "racist" the US is, and of course there is still a lot of racism in the US. But there is racism everywhere. I've lived in several countries, including Switzerland. I've never heard anyone except people that have lived in CH talk about how racist it is (very). The difference, I think, is that the US is the country most likely to admit fault when they are racist. Americans themselves will say "yes, we're racist", while Swiss, Germans, Brits, etc. all seem to still be in that denial stage. I think things like Brexit are starting to get people to think long and hard about their actual views on race / immigration. America just got to the party first.
- refoundglory 8y ago
  Weeeeeeelllll, you might say that America is one of a few countries that had overt legal racism recently enough that it's impossible to ignore.
- vivekseth 8y ago
  Yeah, I don’t think racism is an American issue. I think racist attitudes can result wherever people have low exposure to people of different races. For example, I feel that India has a lot of racism (just from my personal experience visiting a few times). Part of what makes US unique is that it’s minority groups are much larger than most other countries. I feel that this means racist attitudes get acted upon more frequently, and that victims have a stronger voice here.
- throwaway4job 8y ago
  Having worked in Germany, London, and America, I feel as though America is far more racist than the other countries. I understand your desire to pretend that the US is merely honest about a global belief, but that's not true. That's just some shit that racist people want to be true. Racism in the US is stronger, more violent, and more vitriolic than it is is in other places. The other places aren't perfect, but America is a fucking cesspool filled with vile people.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  The US is also a very heterogeneous society, so race issues come up a lot. Some (but not all) of the countries you’ve listed have a more homogeneous population, which means race problems are less likely to flare up in big messy ways. It’s a lot easier to spot a racist when the target of their ire is nearby, as compared to the one that Just mutters obscenities about foreigners while reading the newspaper.
  - spiralx 8y ago
    > The US is also a very heterogeneous society, so race issues come up a lot. No it isn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...
refoundglory 8y ago
A far more generous interpretation would be that Wikipedia and the English internet are very far from comprehensive reports on non-English speaking countries. With a little more effort you could have found many more wrongful convictions in France that were even reported on in English ( http://www.medilljusticeproject.org/wrongful-convictions http://www.medilljusticeproject.org/wrongful-convictions) and if you searched in French I am sure you would find even more.
olavk 8y ago
Given that the the incarceration rate in the US is more than six time the rate in France (https://www.statista.com/statistics/300986/incarceration-rates-in-oecd-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/300986/incarceration-rat...), and the US population is much larger in absolute number, you wouldn't expect to hear as many stories, even assuming the French system is just as bad.
lgeorget 8y ago
For a more recent case than Joan of Arc (which was hardly a trial by nowadays' standards), have a look at the infamous "Affaire d'Outreau" which was really a huge scandal at the time. I personally think we just talk more about the USA because: - everything the USA does or says is heavily scrutinized anyway, - many more people can read English than French or Russian so news about cases like this one are more shared on social networks, including among foreign people.

_jal 8y ago

> The most generous interpretation is that the French penal system is more humane than the US That is indeed generous. French prisons are notoriously awful. A bit of a catalogue of official condemnations is available at the Wikipedia page[1], but more telling are the many, many anecdotes of people who have done time in them. Of course nasty prisons doesn't mean that the administration of the courts isn't impeccable, and I am hardly an expert, but I rather doubt it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_conditions_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_conditions_in_France

fastball 8y ago

It's similar to how racism is presented. Many people talk about how "racist" the US is, and of course there is still a lot of racism in the US. But there is racism everywhere. I've lived in several countries, including Switzerland. I've never heard anyone except people that have lived in CH talk about how racist it is (very). The difference, I think, is that the US is the country most likely to admit fault when they are racist. Americans themselves will say "yes, we're racist", while Swiss, Germans, Brits, etc. all seem to still be in that denial stage. I think things like Brexit are starting to get people to think long and hard about their actual views on race / immigration. America just got to the party first.

refoundglory 8y ago
Weeeeeeelllll, you might say that America is one of a few countries that had overt legal racism recently enough that it's impossible to ignore.
vivekseth 8y ago
Yeah, I don’t think racism is an American issue. I think racist attitudes can result wherever people have low exposure to people of different races. For example, I feel that India has a lot of racism (just from my personal experience visiting a few times). Part of what makes US unique is that it’s minority groups are much larger than most other countries. I feel that this means racist attitudes get acted upon more frequently, and that victims have a stronger voice here.
throwaway4job 8y ago
Having worked in Germany, London, and America, I feel as though America is far more racist than the other countries. I understand your desire to pretend that the US is merely honest about a global belief, but that's not true. That's just some shit that racist people want to be true. Racism in the US is stronger, more violent, and more vitriolic than it is is in other places. The other places aren't perfect, but America is a fucking cesspool filled with vile people.
village-idiot 8y ago
The US is also a very heterogeneous society, so race issues come up a lot. Some (but not all) of the countries you’ve listed have a more homogeneous population, which means race problems are less likely to flare up in big messy ways. It’s a lot easier to spot a racist when the target of their ire is nearby, as compared to the one that Just mutters obscenities about foreigners while reading the newspaper.
- spiralx 8y ago
  > The US is also a very heterogeneous society, so race issues come up a lot. No it isn't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

refoundglory 8y ago

A far more generous interpretation would be that Wikipedia and the English internet are very far from comprehensive reports on non-English speaking countries. With a little more effort you could have found many more wrongful convictions in France that were even reported on in English ( http://www.medilljusticeproject.org/wrongful-convictions http://www.medilljusticeproject.org/wrongful-convictions) and if you searched in French I am sure you would find even more.

olavk 8y ago

Given that the the incarceration rate in the US is more than six time the rate in France (https://www.statista.com/statistics/300986/incarceration-rates-in-oecd-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/300986/incarceration-rat...), and the US population is much larger in absolute number, you wouldn't expect to hear as many stories, even assuming the French system is just as bad.

lgeorget 8y ago

For a more recent case than Joan of Arc (which was hardly a trial by nowadays' standards), have a look at the infamous "Affaire d'Outreau" which was really a huge scandal at the time. I personally think we just talk more about the USA because: - everything the USA does or says is heavily scrutinized anyway, - many more people can read English than French or Russian so news about cases like this one are more shared on social networks, including among foreign people.