6 ms·

> Now why, instead, are we now so dead-set on being so goddamn serious all the time? What happened to simpler times where things like "error: ‘long long long’

by munin 8y ago

> Now why, instead, are we now so dead-set on being so goddamn serious all the time? What happened to simpler times where things like "error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC" were the norm? What happened to simpler times where were used to be able to laugh at ourselves? Sure, there were disagreements and the occasional toxic troll, but it was very easy to just pointedly ignore them. "Remember the good old days, when we didn't care about feelings? Yeah, maybe a bunch of women and other minorities got turned away from tech because they would be bombarded for nudes, doxxed, and had to endure a lot of racist taunting, but at least _we_ were having a good time, and right now, that's what I care about." Yes, it was easy for the author to ignore them. Not for other people. That's the point. The author is giving me PTSD flashbacks to coming home from grade school with a black eye and being lectured about how if only I had ignored the bullies, this wouldn't happen, so really in a way wasn't it all my fault?

adamjc 8y ago
>"Remember the good old days, when we didn't care about feelings? Yeah, maybe a bunch of women and other minorities got turned away from tech because they would be bombarded for nudes, doxxed, and had to endure a lot of racist taunting, but at least _we_ were having a good time, and right now, that's what I care about." This is a strawman, and I assume you are better than that.
- onion2k 8y ago
  This is a strawman I don't think it is. Those of us who've been in tech for a long time know women and people in minorities who have come and gone from the industry for these exact reasons. You don't have to blindly accept the stories people tell about how they're abused and mistreated; just read the comments on the videos of people's talks, or look at the replies to their tweets, and it's really obvious.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    Agree. This is not a strawman. Tech culture is nice and cosy for us straight white men, not so much for others. I personally know several women who have left the whole industry/scene because they'd had enough sexism for one lifetime, thank you very much. If you don't like the anecdata, then there's plenty of studies saying the same thing, and of course the numbers don't lie: there are less women in tech than men (and no, the reason for this is not that they're not very good at it, ffs). Going back to the good old days is not an option if we want more women involved. And I want more women involved, so I'm not going to co-operate with any attempt to go back to the old days.
- threeseed 8y ago
  I know personally of a few women engineers who have been sexually harassed, discriminated against, belittled at work etc. And very few stay within the industry for very long after. There is a reason IT has such a toxic reputation. It's because it tolerates some pretty appalling behaviour at times.
- Ensorceled 8y ago
  That’s not a strawman. It’s reframing the original assertion to highlight the problems the author is ignoring. They are not claiming that this is the author’s actual assertion so they can “knock it down” If you disagree with the reframing, please explain why instead of shouting “fallacy”
chrisseaton 8y ago
> What happened to simpler times where things like "error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC" were the norm? I don't even understand this - is this kind of joke now prohibited by the Linux code of conduct?
BlackFly 8y ago
I'm a bit confused on which of two points you are trying to make. I too was bullied at school. There was no code of conduct at my school. I too was told that I had to ignore bullies. But I cannot for the life of me believe that making those children who bullied me attest to a code of conduct would have stopped the bullying. Nor can I believe that enforcement by teachers would have increased; the behavior would already have been considered criminal if we were adults so the reason it was ignored was something else. Zero tolerance policies in schools exist because the enforcement problem is so hard to solve. One person's word against another. I don't see a code of conduct and think to myself, "Oh, good. There won't be any jerks here." I just think, "Hmm, I wonder if they have been having problems... do I want to be here?"
antt 8y ago
>Yes, it was easy for the author to ignore them. Not for other people. That's the point. The author is giving me PTSD flashbacks to coming home from grade school with a black eye and being lectured about how if only I had ignored the bullies, this wouldn't happen, so really in a way wasn't it all my fault? If you got PTSD from a black eye what did I get from being beaten into the emergency room with a swollen liver when I was 9? What did my grandmother get for surviving an extermination camp? People are anti-fragile. The less adversity you have experienced the less you can deal with adversity. If everything is PTSD inducing nothing is. Trying to protect people from reality only makes them unfit to live in it.

by munin 8y ago

adamjc 8y ago

>"Remember the good old days, when we didn't care about feelings? Yeah, maybe a bunch of women and other minorities got turned away from tech because they would be bombarded for nudes, doxxed, and had to endure a lot of racist taunting, but at least _we_ were having a good time, and right now, that's what I care about." This is a strawman, and I assume you are better than that.

onion2k 8y ago
This is a strawman I don't think it is. Those of us who've been in tech for a long time know women and people in minorities who have come and gone from the industry for these exact reasons. You don't have to blindly accept the stories people tell about how they're abused and mistreated; just read the comments on the videos of people's talks, or look at the replies to their tweets, and it's really obvious.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  Agree. This is not a strawman. Tech culture is nice and cosy for us straight white men, not so much for others. I personally know several women who have left the whole industry/scene because they'd had enough sexism for one lifetime, thank you very much. If you don't like the anecdata, then there's plenty of studies saying the same thing, and of course the numbers don't lie: there are less women in tech than men (and no, the reason for this is not that they're not very good at it, ffs). Going back to the good old days is not an option if we want more women involved. And I want more women involved, so I'm not going to co-operate with any attempt to go back to the old days.
threeseed 8y ago
I know personally of a few women engineers who have been sexually harassed, discriminated against, belittled at work etc. And very few stay within the industry for very long after. There is a reason IT has such a toxic reputation. It's because it tolerates some pretty appalling behaviour at times.
Ensorceled 8y ago
That’s not a strawman. It’s reframing the original assertion to highlight the problems the author is ignoring. They are not claiming that this is the author’s actual assertion so they can “knock it down” If you disagree with the reframing, please explain why instead of shouting “fallacy”

chrisseaton 8y ago

> What happened to simpler times where things like "error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC" were the norm? I don't even understand this - is this kind of joke now prohibited by the Linux code of conduct?

BlackFly 8y ago

I'm a bit confused on which of two points you are trying to make. I too was bullied at school. There was no code of conduct at my school. I too was told that I had to ignore bullies. But I cannot for the life of me believe that making those children who bullied me attest to a code of conduct would have stopped the bullying. Nor can I believe that enforcement by teachers would have increased; the behavior would already have been considered criminal if we were adults so the reason it was ignored was something else. Zero tolerance policies in schools exist because the enforcement problem is so hard to solve. One person's word against another. I don't see a code of conduct and think to myself, "Oh, good. There won't be any jerks here." I just think, "Hmm, I wonder if they have been having problems... do I want to be here?"

antt 8y ago

>Yes, it was easy for the author to ignore them. Not for other people. That's the point. The author is giving me PTSD flashbacks to coming home from grade school with a black eye and being lectured about how if only I had ignored the bullies, this wouldn't happen, so really in a way wasn't it all my fault? If you got PTSD from a black eye what did I get from being beaten into the emergency room with a swollen liver when I was 9? What did my grandmother get for surviving an extermination camp? People are anti-fragile. The less adversity you have experienced the less you can deal with adversity. If everything is PTSD inducing nothing is. Trying to protect people from reality only makes them unfit to live in it.