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I think it’s the last bit. That people don’t participate. I can’t remeber how many hearings we’ve done on changes that got nothing but crackpot replies because

I think it’s the last bit. That people don’t participate. I can’t remeber how many hearings we’ve done on changes that got nothing but crackpot replies because no regular folks want to spend time participating in the society they live in anymore. Only in one area do people actually take action, schools. If we close down a school, for various reasons but typically efficiency (money), parents will open a new private school in its place. I’m Danish so the laws are a little complicated, but basically a private school gets as much funding as a public school and that means we save no money by closing a public school that gets replaced by a private one. So our school system is extremely democratic, because you can’t make changes without the parents. Now, our school system isn’t the only system that works like this, most of them do really. But almost every other system is run mainly by professional bureaucrats who make the plans, because they are never opposed by anyone, because nobody participate. I mean, crackpots participation has probably gone up over the years, but real involvement from real people with realist plans are almost nonexistent. I consider crackpots people too by the way, but you can’t power a city with special unicorn rays or by having a voulanteer threadmill. Which are the only two responses we got to a recent hearing on which power plant to build. Want actual influence or real change? Then get involved.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
A few thoughts: The elites are in the best position to come up with time and energy to participate in things. They are also the most likely to have the knowledge needed to participate effectively. I participated in some online forums while openly homeless. Classism is a thing and it's quite hard to combat that. When the non-elites try to participate in such processes and don't know how and won't be given the same respect they are expected to give to their "betters" etc, it can easily wind up being a waste of time for them. Similar to the idea of "never attribute to malice that which is best explained by stupidity," a lot of people simply don't have solutions. Period. Regardless of their social class, background, etc. If no one knows a better answer, more people participating doesn't necessarily improve the outcome. I'm off the street. I'm tired of being poor. I'm working on improving my life. While homeless, I kind of had the luxury of being outside the system and relatively free to piss on it at will and criticize it liberally. I'm currently wrestling with the question of whether or not my supposed high morals can actually survive intact if I get connected and get money and power and influence. I don't know the answer to that. I have been badly used and mistreated by needy people while my life was in the toilet because I was apparently the only hope they had of getting their needs met. I'm quite angry about that. Maybe the answer is my supposed high morals really just make me a chump and that's it. Maybe choosing to not be a chump and choosing to line my own damn pockets at long last means me and my bleeding heart tendencies have to part company. Which is some attempt at saying "Maybe participating in The System is what makes you a bad person." Possibly not a very effective means of voicing what I'm trying to get at.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  Classism is certainly a thing, and that’s unfortunate, but it’s also really hard to deal with people who see in black-and-whites without appearing condescending, because almost everything is extremely complicated.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    If you are suggesting I see in black and white, you are in error.
  - eksemplar 8y ago
    Am I though? You seem to outline a very black-and-white choice ahead of you, to be good/evil.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      For someone stating that everything is very complicated, that's an incredibly reductionist take on my rather long comment.
      - eksemplar 8y ago
        Well, you also saw society as something you’re either in/out of. You view us as elitarian/non-elitarian. If someone aren’t respected or have a hard time getting heard, it’s a complete waste for them. You either have high morals or not. You think you know the motivation behind the people who mistreated you, and define them as evil. You think that everyone participating in the system are evil. I mean, I’m sure you didn’t mean these things exactly like I interpret them now, and I am taking what you said extremely literal. I’m sure you had a miserable time, but how do you suggest we change that for other people, when your own solution seem to be chosing whether or not to be a good person. I mean, do you really think being a terrible person gives you advantages in life? Maybe in some areas it does, and maybe for some periods of time, but it usually catches up to you.
        8y ago
watwut 8y ago
It is not just that. Listen what exactly he wrote: "If you want to say that you think something is a bad idea, you sugarcoat it to hell and back, focusing first on complimenting your counterpart on where you think they are successful." Practically, lets say you are someone badly affected by that policy and attempt to participate. Your attempt to accurately describe how exactly it affects you, will make you seen as rude and inappropriate. You are trouble and will be treated as such. Another part: "In public it’s different, here you’ll sometimes get heated for the audience, but you’ll still be beat friends once the cameras stop rolling." Practically, if you attempt to participate, you will be show some spectacle of disagreement and conflict. Which is just show for audience, after which everyone will be back to euphemisms, sugar coating and nothing will change. Because it was show and none of it matters. ---------------- Locals who did not wanted local schools closed There were protests of locals in various American cities. They participated. Backroom deals won.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  Protesting and complaining isn’t ideal responses in democracy where almost every decision is a compromise. Especially not if you are reactive rather than proactive. If you want real change, then you can’t just complain for a few days after something shitty happens. You gotta get out there and work for change. The school is a good example. If our parents protested instead of using the system to open private schools then the schools would probably have been closed. The parents would’ve been angry, but they probably wouldn’t have voted that differently. Instead they actually build a school within the rules, something which isn’t easy and can’t be done in a few days, and as a result they got their change. The change came at a cost of course, schools aren’t closed for the fun of it, so maybe the elderly get their houses cleaned less as a result, but they still made the change and they wouldn’t have if they hadn’t read the rules and done the hard work. It’s easy to protest, but it’s also extremely easy to ignore, and often rightly so, because complaining offers no alternatives. I’m not saying protests can’t change things though, but you need a majority to protest for a long while.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Majority of protests are organized by long time activists and are rarely first step. It is great when discussion works and when compromise is possible. It is not easy to protest nor to get enough people in place. What you do what discussion does not work and when people who hold power are not willing to listen or compromise? Situation you described had elite playing show in public and saying and doing something different in private where it matters. They demand to hear nice sugarcoated version of reality where their policies are praised and not criticized. Had you described situation where everyone listens and people can criticize elite, then I would agree that cal discussion is way to go. Also, this sounds like a situation with low conflict and risks. Private school wont be paid by parents money, their expenses can go slightly bit up but not much more. That is entirely different then closing public school in area where people cant affort private one and state wont pay.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

A few thoughts: The elites are in the best position to come up with time and energy to participate in things. They are also the most likely to have the knowledge needed to participate effectively. I participated in some online forums while openly homeless. Classism is a thing and it's quite hard to combat that. When the non-elites try to participate in such processes and don't know how and won't be given the same respect they are expected to give to their "betters" etc, it can easily wind up being a waste of time for them. Similar to the idea of "never attribute to malice that which is best explained by stupidity," a lot of people simply don't have solutions. Period. Regardless of their social class, background, etc. If no one knows a better answer, more people participating doesn't necessarily improve the outcome. I'm off the street. I'm tired of being poor. I'm working on improving my life. While homeless, I kind of had the luxury of being outside the system and relatively free to piss on it at will and criticize it liberally. I'm currently wrestling with the question of whether or not my supposed high morals can actually survive intact if I get connected and get money and power and influence. I don't know the answer to that. I have been badly used and mistreated by needy people while my life was in the toilet because I was apparently the only hope they had of getting their needs met. I'm quite angry about that. Maybe the answer is my supposed high morals really just make me a chump and that's it. Maybe choosing to not be a chump and choosing to line my own damn pockets at long last means me and my bleeding heart tendencies have to part company. Which is some attempt at saying "Maybe participating in The System is what makes you a bad person." Possibly not a very effective means of voicing what I'm trying to get at.

eksemplar 8y ago
Classism is certainly a thing, and that’s unfortunate, but it’s also really hard to deal with people who see in black-and-whites without appearing condescending, because almost everything is extremely complicated.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  If you are suggesting I see in black and white, you are in error.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  Am I though? You seem to outline a very black-and-white choice ahead of you, to be good/evil.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    For someone stating that everything is very complicated, that's an incredibly reductionist take on my rather long comment.
    - eksemplar 8y ago
      Well, you also saw society as something you’re either in/out of. You view us as elitarian/non-elitarian. If someone aren’t respected or have a hard time getting heard, it’s a complete waste for them. You either have high morals or not. You think you know the motivation behind the people who mistreated you, and define them as evil. You think that everyone participating in the system are evil. I mean, I’m sure you didn’t mean these things exactly like I interpret them now, and I am taking what you said extremely literal. I’m sure you had a miserable time, but how do you suggest we change that for other people, when your own solution seem to be chosing whether or not to be a good person. I mean, do you really think being a terrible person gives you advantages in life? Maybe in some areas it does, and maybe for some periods of time, but it usually catches up to you.
      - 8y ago

watwut 8y ago

It is not just that. Listen what exactly he wrote: "If you want to say that you think something is a bad idea, you sugarcoat it to hell and back, focusing first on complimenting your counterpart on where you think they are successful." Practically, lets say you are someone badly affected by that policy and attempt to participate. Your attempt to accurately describe how exactly it affects you, will make you seen as rude and inappropriate. You are trouble and will be treated as such. Another part: "In public it’s different, here you’ll sometimes get heated for the audience, but you’ll still be beat friends once the cameras stop rolling." Practically, if you attempt to participate, you will be show some spectacle of disagreement and conflict. Which is just show for audience, after which everyone will be back to euphemisms, sugar coating and nothing will change. Because it was show and none of it matters. ---------------- Locals who did not wanted local schools closed There were protests of locals in various American cities. They participated. Backroom deals won.

eksemplar 8y ago
Protesting and complaining isn’t ideal responses in democracy where almost every decision is a compromise. Especially not if you are reactive rather than proactive. If you want real change, then you can’t just complain for a few days after something shitty happens. You gotta get out there and work for change. The school is a good example. If our parents protested instead of using the system to open private schools then the schools would probably have been closed. The parents would’ve been angry, but they probably wouldn’t have voted that differently. Instead they actually build a school within the rules, something which isn’t easy and can’t be done in a few days, and as a result they got their change. The change came at a cost of course, schools aren’t closed for the fun of it, so maybe the elderly get their houses cleaned less as a result, but they still made the change and they wouldn’t have if they hadn’t read the rules and done the hard work. It’s easy to protest, but it’s also extremely easy to ignore, and often rightly so, because complaining offers no alternatives. I’m not saying protests can’t change things though, but you need a majority to protest for a long while.
- watwut 8y ago
  Majority of protests are organized by long time activists and are rarely first step. It is great when discussion works and when compromise is possible. It is not easy to protest nor to get enough people in place. What you do what discussion does not work and when people who hold power are not willing to listen or compromise? Situation you described had elite playing show in public and saying and doing something different in private where it matters. They demand to hear nice sugarcoated version of reality where their policies are praised and not criticized. Had you described situation where everyone listens and people can criticize elite, then I would agree that cal discussion is way to go. Also, this sounds like a situation with low conflict and risks. Private school wont be paid by parents money, their expenses can go slightly bit up but not much more. That is entirely different then closing public school in area where people cant affort private one and state wont pay.