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Discussions on this topic have descended into culture war elsewhere and been shut down. It would be great if at least one thread could discuss how management o

by shirro 8y ago

Discussions on this topic have descended into culture war elsewhere and been shut down. It would be great if at least one thread could discuss how management of software projects can evolve to better serve all contributors instead of people digging trenches. I am guilty of enjoying Linus tirades, especially when he is making technical arguments. I think a lot of people use colourful language as emphasis. I don't subscribe to the idea that women are delicate flowers and need to be protected from a bit of swearing. Adults in general shouldn't be wrapped in cotton wool. But Linux hasn't been a hobby project for ages and development discussions are open and archived and improving the quality of discourse there is worthwhile. If Linus can learn to communicate better, while maintaining his honesty and passion it will benefit everyone, himself included. I am a bit disappointed that this has been mixed up with gender politics because it seems to me that the lack of representation by gender, race, social position etc is a bigger societal issue and putting any of that back on Linus seems a little unfair.

thecrash 8y ago
> I don't subscribe to the idea that women are delicate flowers and need to be protected from a bit of swearing. You're right that women - like anyone - are generally capable of dealing with a harsh environment, but the difference is women are penalized for doing so. The most effective way to operate in a harsh environment is to match it. If busting balls is the way your peers call attention to a technical issue, then when you want someone to pay attention, you'll bust their balls. If someone challenges you in a rude way, often a rude rebuttal is the most effective response. Women can do that just as well as anyone else, but the problem is when they do, they're judged more harshly. This isn't a question of corporate policy, but of human socialization. We all unconsciously expect women to be more mild and agreeable. So when they are rude, profane, or combative, we notice it much more readily and it provokes a stronger emotional reaction. People are much more likely to write them off as "unprofessional" or "drama". This in turn closes off one of the main options for dealing with a harsh environment. There are two possible solutions to this: fix human socialization so that people no longer have involuntary unconscious biases about combative women, or simply cultivate an environment that discourages everyone from being combative, so we can avoid the issue and get back to building stuff. The former would be ideal, but it requires broad sweeping social change (and a lot of time). Until that can happen, we unfortunately have to settle for the latter.
efuquen 8y ago
> I think a lot of people use colourful language as emphasis. You do not need to curse in a professional environment, full stop. Letting a word fly out by mistake is one thing, it can happen to anyone. But overwhelming your emails, messages, and speech with curse words when it's completely and utterly unnecessary and can make people uncomfortable is unacceptable. We're all adults here, you need to be able to control your language and not make excuses for it. In terms of lack of representation I don't see how they are not mixed up. When you're already the outsider/minority things like this just serve to further reinforce that feeling of not belonging. It is just another source of friction that reinforces the cycle of under-representation and if your goal is to break that cycle then making the environment as inclusive as possible is certainly something you need to deal with.

by shirro 8y ago

thecrash 8y ago

> I don't subscribe to the idea that women are delicate flowers and need to be protected from a bit of swearing. You're right that women - like anyone - are generally capable of dealing with a harsh environment, but the difference is women are penalized for doing so. The most effective way to operate in a harsh environment is to match it. If busting balls is the way your peers call attention to a technical issue, then when you want someone to pay attention, you'll bust their balls. If someone challenges you in a rude way, often a rude rebuttal is the most effective response. Women can do that just as well as anyone else, but the problem is when they do, they're judged more harshly. This isn't a question of corporate policy, but of human socialization. We all unconsciously expect women to be more mild and agreeable. So when they are rude, profane, or combative, we notice it much more readily and it provokes a stronger emotional reaction. People are much more likely to write them off as "unprofessional" or "drama". This in turn closes off one of the main options for dealing with a harsh environment. There are two possible solutions to this: fix human socialization so that people no longer have involuntary unconscious biases about combative women, or simply cultivate an environment that discourages everyone from being combative, so we can avoid the issue and get back to building stuff. The former would be ideal, but it requires broad sweeping social change (and a lot of time). Until that can happen, we unfortunately have to settle for the latter.

efuquen 8y ago

> I think a lot of people use colourful language as emphasis. You do not need to curse in a professional environment, full stop. Letting a word fly out by mistake is one thing, it can happen to anyone. But overwhelming your emails, messages, and speech with curse words when it's completely and utterly unnecessary and can make people uncomfortable is unacceptable. We're all adults here, you need to be able to control your language and not make excuses for it. In terms of lack of representation I don't see how they are not mixed up. When you're already the outsider/minority things like this just serve to further reinforce that feeling of not belonging. It is just another source of friction that reinforces the cycle of under-representation and if your goal is to break that cycle then making the environment as inclusive as possible is certainly something you need to deal with.