7 ms·

Ask HN: time-efficient ways to improve English for non-natives?

Hi, few weeks ago one of the partners of one of europe's largest VCs told me that he couldn't concentrate at my pitch because i sounded to much like http://vimeo.com/7595897 This kinda kept sticky in my mind. ;) As i am moving now with my company[1] to London i would like to use this opportunity to improve my english, my accent and my grammar/spelling. As a typical non-native i have regular problems with spelling e.g. with similar sounding words. I do have this problem especially in hectic faces. Additionally I have trouble with incorrectly translated german expressions. Some of them are really below all pigs. How would you suggest to level up english in a time efficient way? Are there online services/startups you would suggest? Do you have other experiences here? (e.g. writing blog articles?) How did you improve you (once mediocre) english? ps: i left by intention more than 4 mistakes in this post just to prove my point. [1]: My Company - http://www.Garmz.com - Feedback Thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1788016

davidw 16y ago
The "easiest" thing would be to live somewhere where you speak English with native speakers on a regular basis.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  as said. i am moving to london. and spoken language is not the problem. its about mistakes in writing. spelling and grammar
  - davidw 16y ago
    > and spoken language is not the problem. Well, the bit about sounding too 'German' in the pitch indicates it is. So that will help. > its about mistakes in writing. spelling and grammar Are you doing that on purpose, or simply not trying at all? * The first word in a sentence, and proper nouns (names, mostly) are capitalized in English. * its -> "It is" or "It's" * "writing, spelling, and grammar." with at least one comma (the second is optional) and a full-stop (period) at the end of the sentence. That stuff doesn't seem all that difficult to me: I know that German has some of those same rules, like starting a sentence with a capital letter.
  - andreasklinger 16y ago
    Yes you are right about the part about the accent. I missunderstood your argument. Actually i am not doing it on purpose. I just got used over the years to write small-letters in forums/comments and email. Maybe you are right to make this kind of a starting point.
    - davidw 16y ago
      (You missed the 'reply' link) Yes, that definitely looks better! The fact is that you will surely make a few errors, so not capitalizing and the other 'intentional' errors compound those that naturally creep in, making the whole thing look like a big mess.
      - DanielStraight 16y ago
        Agreed. If you don't bother to follow the rules you already know, how do you expect to learn more? It's not like native speakers don't have problems writing correctly. At one point, I couldn't spell the word "necessary" to save my life. One day I decided I would simply refuse to write any word I didn't know how to spell without looking it up. Now I can spell almost every word I know without looking it up. I got a D (a very bad grade) on my first college essay. On every other essay I wrote, I made absolutely certain I wasn't making the same mistakes. I got a B+ (second-best grade) or A (best grade) on every essay after that. Aside from that, I would say immersion is the best thing you can do. Immersion, not language courses, is how native speakers learn to speak like natives. Devote an hour (or more) a day to reading modern English fiction and an hour (or more) to reading modern English non-fiction. Write about what you read. Ask native speakers to review what you've written. Don't just ask them to find mistakes, ask them to rephrase anything that sounds awkward how they would say it. Fluency is imitation. What you want is to say things the way a native speaker would say them, not just to say them grammatically correctly.
        andreasklinger 16y ago
        Thanks. I appreciate the feedback.
nandemo 16y ago
I haven't used it myself but Lang-8 sounds useful: http://lang-8.com/ http://lang-8.com/ Example: http://lang-8.com/184023/journals/661147/English-Class-No3 http://lang-8.com/184023/journals/661147/English-Class-No3 PS: I just checked an entry written in Portuguese (my native language) and there were lots of incorrect corrections, so beware.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  The problem with theses pages is that they advocate the same errors you make in spoken language. Because even natives do them.
tjp 16y ago
The good news is that there are very few native speakers in London :). I'm still nowhere, but three things helped me a lot at the very beginning: 1. BBC iPlayer http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer - it may not help a lot, but is good fun :). 2. I put my CV online - the very next minute recruiters started calling. They're 99% completely useless (even more if you're not looking for a job, haha), but you can have the same conversation over and over again :). 3. Chatting in the pub. The circumstances are the absolute worst, so if you manage to get across anything in the pub, you will be much better off under better conditions.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  thanks a lot for your feedback i am not worried of spoken language we use english in my company as default language
fatmike182 16y ago
You'll stumble upon so many biz partners in London that will surprise you with much worse accents. Big cities demand funny accents - so we Austrians are safe… Just pay attention to the tones and stresses in conversations with Brits & try hard to notice the differences. Changing from American English to British feels a bit ridiculous if you're not used to it (overpronunciation?). edit: btw: http://www.dict.cc http://www.dict.cc shows translations of whole spoken phrases, it's hard to find something there, but in general the database of http://www.phrases.org.uk/ http://www.phrases.org.uk/ is ok. Probably you'll find something on http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/ but I think the level is too low.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  The permanent overdose of US Media makes UK English really sound different. You are right about that ;) Unfort. most of the online learning material is by far too low. If you have any other suggestions let me know!
pmoehring 16y ago
Your fellow Seedcamp company www.wordy.com would help you on a written basis - check the feedback you receive and learn from it. Being here in London, reading english books and newspapers, and going to the movies will also help. Disclosure: I work at Seedcamp...
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  Actually i did that approach already. (Although not with wordy but a native PR professional) This would basically mean writing regulary articles and getting them checked with wordy. Interesting approach but i would prefer a system that shows me instantly errors i do.
- ferparra 16y ago
  Good to know Peter. Choosing a limited set of words/phrases/phrasal verbs and writing an essay based on them is also a good way of training.
alinajaf 16y ago
My preferred way of gaining a good intuitive feel for a language is to read tons of published written material (print magazines, books etc). The language is edited and proofread so you're guaranteed a level of correctness. This trains your mental 'correct-language-pattern-matching-AI' with a constant stream of correct examples to compare all your produced language with, and for me at least, has been the best long-term method of producing correct target language (in my case Japanese). The idea is that you constantly expose yourself to what correct language sounds like, and based on the accumulated experience of reading those you can have an intuitive feel for when a bit of produced language is wrong or right. tldr: read more!
Vargas 16y ago
Spaniard in London with the same problem here. The BEST on-line material is BBC's "The sound of English" http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/pron/sounds/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/pr... Just watch it and practise with a mirror many, many, many times and you will improve. If you are willing to spend some money, I recommend doing an elocution "soften your accent" course. I did it a couple of years ago (sorry, don't remember the name of the company, it was close to St. Pancras Station) and I improved a lot. Pay special attention to "intonation patterns". Even if you make every individual sound right, natives will have trouble understanding you. You have to make all sounds in a sentence flow together in one of the few predefined sound patterns found in British English in order to get understood. Just changing the intonation pattern changes the meaning, even in the same phrase. Example: 'I like YOUR new blue dress' vs. 'I like your new BLUE dress' vs. 'I like your new blue DRESS'.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  Thanks a lot for your feedback. I really like the idea of the "soften your accent" course.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  Found one that looks interesting - maybe it helps other HN users as well: http://www.londonspeechworkshop.com/our-courses/dates-and-prices/ http://www.londonspeechworkshop.com/our-courses/dates-and-pr... Do you have any other recommendations maybe?
  - Vargas 16y ago
    It took some fiddling with my old email archive but I found it, Joe Hudson was my teacher: http://www.pronunciationlondon.co.uk/joe.html http://www.pronunciationlondon.co.uk/joe.html http://www.anenglishaccent.com/author.html http://www.anenglishaccent.com/author.html He is very good. We spent half of every session learning 'high level' stuff (phrases, paragraphs) and the other half practising 'low level' elocution (where to place your tongue and your lips for each sound).
jamesteow 16y ago
If you can find a penpal, that would help I think in spelling and grammar.
petervandijck 16y ago
Time-efficient? Native speaker girl/boyfriend/partner.

davidw 16y ago

The "easiest" thing would be to live somewhere where you speak English with native speakers on a regular basis.

andreasklinger 16y ago
as said. i am moving to london. and spoken language is not the problem. its about mistakes in writing. spelling and grammar
- davidw 16y ago
  > and spoken language is not the problem. Well, the bit about sounding too 'German' in the pitch indicates it is. So that will help. > its about mistakes in writing. spelling and grammar Are you doing that on purpose, or simply not trying at all? * The first word in a sentence, and proper nouns (names, mostly) are capitalized in English. * its -> "It is" or "It's" * "writing, spelling, and grammar." with at least one comma (the second is optional) and a full-stop (period) at the end of the sentence. That stuff doesn't seem all that difficult to me: I know that German has some of those same rules, like starting a sentence with a capital letter.
- andreasklinger 16y ago
  Yes you are right about the part about the accent. I missunderstood your argument. Actually i am not doing it on purpose. I just got used over the years to write small-letters in forums/comments and email. Maybe you are right to make this kind of a starting point.
  - davidw 16y ago
    (You missed the 'reply' link) Yes, that definitely looks better! The fact is that you will surely make a few errors, so not capitalizing and the other 'intentional' errors compound those that naturally creep in, making the whole thing look like a big mess.
    - DanielStraight 16y ago
      Agreed. If you don't bother to follow the rules you already know, how do you expect to learn more? It's not like native speakers don't have problems writing correctly. At one point, I couldn't spell the word "necessary" to save my life. One day I decided I would simply refuse to write any word I didn't know how to spell without looking it up. Now I can spell almost every word I know without looking it up. I got a D (a very bad grade) on my first college essay. On every other essay I wrote, I made absolutely certain I wasn't making the same mistakes. I got a B+ (second-best grade) or A (best grade) on every essay after that. Aside from that, I would say immersion is the best thing you can do. Immersion, not language courses, is how native speakers learn to speak like natives. Devote an hour (or more) a day to reading modern English fiction and an hour (or more) to reading modern English non-fiction. Write about what you read. Ask native speakers to review what you've written. Don't just ask them to find mistakes, ask them to rephrase anything that sounds awkward how they would say it. Fluency is imitation. What you want is to say things the way a native speaker would say them, not just to say them grammatically correctly.
      - andreasklinger 16y ago
        Thanks. I appreciate the feedback.

nandemo 16y ago

I haven't used it myself but Lang-8 sounds useful: http://lang-8.com/ http://lang-8.com/ Example: http://lang-8.com/184023/journals/661147/English-Class-No3 http://lang-8.com/184023/journals/661147/English-Class-No3 PS: I just checked an entry written in Portuguese (my native language) and there were lots of incorrect corrections, so beware.

andreasklinger 16y ago
The problem with theses pages is that they advocate the same errors you make in spoken language. Because even natives do them.

tjp 16y ago

The good news is that there are very few native speakers in London :). I'm still nowhere, but three things helped me a lot at the very beginning: 1. BBC iPlayer http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer http://bbc.co.uk/iplayer - it may not help a lot, but is good fun :). 2. I put my CV online - the very next minute recruiters started calling. They're 99% completely useless (even more if you're not looking for a job, haha), but you can have the same conversation over and over again :). 3. Chatting in the pub. The circumstances are the absolute worst, so if you manage to get across anything in the pub, you will be much better off under better conditions.

andreasklinger 16y ago
thanks a lot for your feedback i am not worried of spoken language we use english in my company as default language

fatmike182 16y ago

You'll stumble upon so many biz partners in London that will surprise you with much worse accents. Big cities demand funny accents - so we Austrians are safe… Just pay attention to the tones and stresses in conversations with Brits & try hard to notice the differences. Changing from American English to British feels a bit ridiculous if you're not used to it (overpronunciation?). edit: btw: http://www.dict.cc http://www.dict.cc shows translations of whole spoken phrases, it's hard to find something there, but in general the database of http://www.phrases.org.uk/ http://www.phrases.org.uk/ is ok. Probably you'll find something on http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/ but I think the level is too low.

andreasklinger 16y ago
The permanent overdose of US Media makes UK English really sound different. You are right about that ;) Unfort. most of the online learning material is by far too low. If you have any other suggestions let me know!

pmoehring 16y ago

Your fellow Seedcamp company www.wordy.com would help you on a written basis - check the feedback you receive and learn from it. Being here in London, reading english books and newspapers, and going to the movies will also help. Disclosure: I work at Seedcamp...

andreasklinger 16y ago
Actually i did that approach already. (Although not with wordy but a native PR professional) This would basically mean writing regulary articles and getting them checked with wordy. Interesting approach but i would prefer a system that shows me instantly errors i do.
ferparra 16y ago
Good to know Peter. Choosing a limited set of words/phrases/phrasal verbs and writing an essay based on them is also a good way of training.

alinajaf 16y ago

My preferred way of gaining a good intuitive feel for a language is to read tons of published written material (print magazines, books etc). The language is edited and proofread so you're guaranteed a level of correctness. This trains your mental 'correct-language-pattern-matching-AI' with a constant stream of correct examples to compare all your produced language with, and for me at least, has been the best long-term method of producing correct target language (in my case Japanese). The idea is that you constantly expose yourself to what correct language sounds like, and based on the accumulated experience of reading those you can have an intuitive feel for when a bit of produced language is wrong or right. tldr: read more!

Vargas 16y ago

Spaniard in London with the same problem here. The BEST on-line material is BBC's "The sound of English" http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/pron/sounds/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/pr... Just watch it and practise with a mirror many, many, many times and you will improve. If you are willing to spend some money, I recommend doing an elocution "soften your accent" course. I did it a couple of years ago (sorry, don't remember the name of the company, it was close to St. Pancras Station) and I improved a lot. Pay special attention to "intonation patterns". Even if you make every individual sound right, natives will have trouble understanding you. You have to make all sounds in a sentence flow together in one of the few predefined sound patterns found in British English in order to get understood. Just changing the intonation pattern changes the meaning, even in the same phrase. Example: 'I like YOUR new blue dress' vs. 'I like your new BLUE dress' vs. 'I like your new blue DRESS'.

andreasklinger 16y ago
Thanks a lot for your feedback. I really like the idea of the "soften your accent" course.
andreasklinger 16y ago
Found one that looks interesting - maybe it helps other HN users as well: http://www.londonspeechworkshop.com/our-courses/dates-and-prices/ http://www.londonspeechworkshop.com/our-courses/dates-and-pr... Do you have any other recommendations maybe?
- Vargas 16y ago
  It took some fiddling with my old email archive but I found it, Joe Hudson was my teacher: http://www.pronunciationlondon.co.uk/joe.html http://www.pronunciationlondon.co.uk/joe.html http://www.anenglishaccent.com/author.html http://www.anenglishaccent.com/author.html He is very good. We spent half of every session learning 'high level' stuff (phrases, paragraphs) and the other half practising 'low level' elocution (where to place your tongue and your lips for each sound).

jamesteow 16y ago

If you can find a penpal, that would help I think in spelling and grammar.

petervandijck 16y ago

Time-efficient? Native speaker girl/boyfriend/partner.