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Ugh. Yet another PayPal disaster. I'm gearing up to go live with a new Mac application in about 6 months time, and I had planned on using PayPal as the prefer

Ugh. Yet another PayPal disaster. I'm gearing up to go live with a new Mac application in about 6 months time, and I had planned on using PayPal as the preferred payment method, as it seems to come with the least headaches. But it seems you can't go a month without yet another PayPal tragedy popping up on HN. Is there any other payment service out there that doesn't have as many problems (especially with customer service) as PayPal? Or better yet, is anyone on HN creating a startup to handle credit card payments that I could use instead of PayPal - ideally, it needs to be dead simple to use - I'm thinking less than 20 lines of ruby, or 50 lines of C to use. Anyone working on something like this?

2arrs2ells 16y ago
Google checkout?
- ido 16y ago
  Only for US and UK sellers (and Amazon's payment service is only for US sellers iirc).
- masklinn 16y ago
  Nope. The experience is just as crummy, the support is even worse and there are pretty big geographical restrictions on both sides of exchanges (sales and buys). For instance, as far as I know you still can't buy or sell from Canada (with a canadian bank account anyway) via Checkout. Only alternatives are going straight for the credit card, or using international bank transfers (which I doubt are without hassles)
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Does anyone actually want to pay right out of their bank account? I won't even use my debit card online.
    - ido 16y ago
      In Europe, yes. Bank transfers are the default form of payment here, until very recently most people didn't even own credit cards. Even today you can't use credit cards in most supermarkets in Austria, but you can normally pay with a direct bank transfer.
      - calloc 16y ago
        Or chip and pin.
  - GFischer 16y ago
    For single payments (freelance stuff or whatever), Western Union ( http://www.westernunion.com/ http://www.westernunion.com/ ) might be the way to go. I received money via WU for about a decade with zero problems. But for online shopping, I don't have an alternative.
    - auxbuss 16y ago
      Western Union is very expensive, especially when currency exchange is involved. Maybe once a year I accept a payment from some part of the World where this is the buyer's only option. WU usually eats my margin, but I feel a little better for getting stuff out to where it otherwise wouldn't.
      - 2arrs2ells 16y ago
        I feel like WU has also been tainted by their frequent use by the 419 scammers.
    - rmc 16y ago
      Western Union is aimed at transfering money, not buying/selling goods. I had to transfer money to someone with WU and had to ring them up to verify it. They explicitly asked on the phone if I was sending money in exchange for goods, and that they don't support that, and you shouldn't use WU for that. This is would scare off most customers and is not a good business idea.
      - GFischer 16y ago
        I think those kind of checks are country-specific... I always received money here in Uruguay (from Austria and Canada) and nobody called the senders (family members or friends of family). Still, you're right... Wikipedia says: "Western Union advises its customers not to send money to someone that they have never met in person."
dsplittgerber 16y ago
As evidenced by Max Levchins recount of Paypal's problems in "Founders at Work", the massive problem with handling credit card payments is fraud, not coding or something similar. That's most probably the reason why so few firms tackle this space.
- citricsquid 16y ago
  Exactly. A huge number of people seem to ignore this and make the naive "Why doesn't someone just do what paypal are doing, but better?" type statements. There are so many problems Paypal faces when offering the service they do, granted some of these problems faced by people are ridiculous (like this one we're posting in) but the average problem that is reported is reasonable. Maybe it can be argued that unless Paypal can guarantee fantastic service they shouldn't operate as a business, but I (as a customer of Paypal) love their service, it'd suck if they went :-(
auxbuss 16y ago
First off, I had a bad PayPal experience years ago, so no amount of discussion would persuade to me to use them. I wouldn't use them if they, or anyone else, paid me. They are that bad. Putting my bias aside, what you need to consider is the time and stress that will occur if -- I'm straining not to say when -- things go wrong. If they do go wrong, then you will meet a void of silence. You will spend huge gobs of time -- and incur costs -- trying to sort things out, and you will completely without control. You will lose sleep. You will be distracted. And if the sum involved is large enough, it could be disastrous for your business and perhaps your life. Now, ask yourself: what you would pay to avoid those risks? I suggest the simple answer is to sidestep the risk and simply not go there.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  You know what? I should have known better. We had $50K frozen for 6 months about 10 years ago when paypal suddenly decided they liked our money more than we did. Eventually they paid it back but not after all the symptoms that you just described. Then, about a year ago I did a project with a freelancer in the US (another HN'er) and I ended up having to pay him using paypal because we had no other viable option. So, I thought maybe they'd cleaned up their act in the meantime. Now I kick myself for being so stupid.
  - gommm 16y ago
    After a few bad experiences with Paypal, I always use wire transfer when paying someone else or being paid as a freelancer... It works well, it's more often than not cheaper than Paypal and anyone who has a bank account can receive wire transfers.
    - irons 16y ago
      When, or how, is a wire transfer cheaper than Paypal? In the US, wire transfers through banks tend to have fixed initiation costs on the order of $25-$35.
      - 16y ago
DeusExMachina 16y ago
http://www.fastspring.com/ http://www.fastspring.com/ Never had problems with them. They have a great customer support and a neat admin interface. They take payments from PayPal too, so you don't have to renounce to those.
steveklabnik 16y ago
While it forces you to get an actual merchant account, the experience when using ActiveMerchant is super easy to integrate. It's certainly less than your 20 lines of Ruby. And if you wanted to go that route, it supports a ton of backends, so you could actually start with PayPal until you get a merchant account, and then switch over.
PonyGumbo 16y ago
Honestly, it's really not that difficult to set up a merchant account. The only drawback (from my perspective) is the monthly fee.
- petercooper 16y ago
  Is it? Who can I get a competitive merchant account and processing with here in the UK that lets me charge arbitrary amounts (i.e. not selling "products") without a laborious signup process? PayPal's the only thing I've found close to this over the years.
  - PonyGumbo 16y ago
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with the available options in the UK.

2arrs2ells 16y ago

Google checkout?

ido 16y ago
Only for US and UK sellers (and Amazon's payment service is only for US sellers iirc).
masklinn 16y ago
Nope. The experience is just as crummy, the support is even worse and there are pretty big geographical restrictions on both sides of exchanges (sales and buys). For instance, as far as I know you still can't buy or sell from Canada (with a canadian bank account anyway) via Checkout. Only alternatives are going straight for the credit card, or using international bank transfers (which I doubt are without hassles)
- jrockway 16y ago
  Does anyone actually want to pay right out of their bank account? I won't even use my debit card online.
  - ido 16y ago
    In Europe, yes. Bank transfers are the default form of payment here, until very recently most people didn't even own credit cards. Even today you can't use credit cards in most supermarkets in Austria, but you can normally pay with a direct bank transfer.
    - calloc 16y ago
      Or chip and pin.
- GFischer 16y ago
  For single payments (freelance stuff or whatever), Western Union ( http://www.westernunion.com/ http://www.westernunion.com/ ) might be the way to go. I received money via WU for about a decade with zero problems. But for online shopping, I don't have an alternative.
  - auxbuss 16y ago
    Western Union is very expensive, especially when currency exchange is involved. Maybe once a year I accept a payment from some part of the World where this is the buyer's only option. WU usually eats my margin, but I feel a little better for getting stuff out to where it otherwise wouldn't.
    - 2arrs2ells 16y ago
      I feel like WU has also been tainted by their frequent use by the 419 scammers.
  - rmc 16y ago
    Western Union is aimed at transfering money, not buying/selling goods. I had to transfer money to someone with WU and had to ring them up to verify it. They explicitly asked on the phone if I was sending money in exchange for goods, and that they don't support that, and you shouldn't use WU for that. This is would scare off most customers and is not a good business idea.
    - GFischer 16y ago
      I think those kind of checks are country-specific... I always received money here in Uruguay (from Austria and Canada) and nobody called the senders (family members or friends of family). Still, you're right... Wikipedia says: "Western Union advises its customers not to send money to someone that they have never met in person."

dsplittgerber 16y ago

As evidenced by Max Levchins recount of Paypal's problems in "Founders at Work", the massive problem with handling credit card payments is fraud, not coding or something similar. That's most probably the reason why so few firms tackle this space.

citricsquid 16y ago
Exactly. A huge number of people seem to ignore this and make the naive "Why doesn't someone just do what paypal are doing, but better?" type statements. There are so many problems Paypal faces when offering the service they do, granted some of these problems faced by people are ridiculous (like this one we're posting in) but the average problem that is reported is reasonable. Maybe it can be argued that unless Paypal can guarantee fantastic service they shouldn't operate as a business, but I (as a customer of Paypal) love their service, it'd suck if they went :-(

auxbuss 16y ago

First off, I had a bad PayPal experience years ago, so no amount of discussion would persuade to me to use them. I wouldn't use them if they, or anyone else, paid me. They are that bad. Putting my bias aside, what you need to consider is the time and stress that will occur if -- I'm straining not to say when -- things go wrong. If they do go wrong, then you will meet a void of silence. You will spend huge gobs of time -- and incur costs -- trying to sort things out, and you will completely without control. You will lose sleep. You will be distracted. And if the sum involved is large enough, it could be disastrous for your business and perhaps your life. Now, ask yourself: what you would pay to avoid those risks? I suggest the simple answer is to sidestep the risk and simply not go there.

jacquesm 16y ago
You know what? I should have known better. We had $50K frozen for 6 months about 10 years ago when paypal suddenly decided they liked our money more than we did. Eventually they paid it back but not after all the symptoms that you just described. Then, about a year ago I did a project with a freelancer in the US (another HN'er) and I ended up having to pay him using paypal because we had no other viable option. So, I thought maybe they'd cleaned up their act in the meantime. Now I kick myself for being so stupid.
- gommm 16y ago
  After a few bad experiences with Paypal, I always use wire transfer when paying someone else or being paid as a freelancer... It works well, it's more often than not cheaper than Paypal and anyone who has a bank account can receive wire transfers.
  - irons 16y ago
    When, or how, is a wire transfer cheaper than Paypal? In the US, wire transfers through banks tend to have fixed initiation costs on the order of $25-$35.
    - 16y ago

DeusExMachina 16y ago

http://www.fastspring.com/ http://www.fastspring.com/ Never had problems with them. They have a great customer support and a neat admin interface. They take payments from PayPal too, so you don't have to renounce to those.

steveklabnik 16y ago

While it forces you to get an actual merchant account, the experience when using ActiveMerchant is super easy to integrate. It's certainly less than your 20 lines of Ruby. And if you wanted to go that route, it supports a ton of backends, so you could actually start with PayPal until you get a merchant account, and then switch over.

PonyGumbo 16y ago

Honestly, it's really not that difficult to set up a merchant account. The only drawback (from my perspective) is the monthly fee.

petercooper 16y ago
Is it? Who can I get a competitive merchant account and processing with here in the UK that lets me charge arbitrary amounts (i.e. not selling "products") without a laborious signup process? PayPal's the only thing I've found close to this over the years.
- PonyGumbo 16y ago
  Sorry, I'm not familiar with the available options in the UK.