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This system fails badly when people move between cheap and expensive cities over the course of their lives, and might need to build savings at expensive city le

This system fails badly when people move between cheap and expensive cities over the course of their lives, and might need to build savings at expensive city levels when living in a cheap city. Why not just pay everyone at the expensive city level? If you were hiring a true consultant rather than an employee or a full-time "contractor," you would pay them solely based on value delivered and the defensibility of their pricing given GitLab's business needs. Their cost of living wouldn't matter. For employees at an all remote company, I don't see why their cost of living should matter any more than that. And applicants in expensive cities would not be dissuaded. Additionally, the calculator's attempt to handle cost of living fails to address hot markets outside the US (hello from Montreal), treats many countries as way more homogeneous in cost of living than they really are, and gives a seemingly quite inadequate 17% adjustment for contractors. That doesn't cover legal and accounting fees, paid time off of various types, the cost and limitations in health insurance coverage attainable by one-person companies, normally employer-side retirement contributions, etc.

pritianka 8y ago
This is really useful information. Thanks for sharing. I will put this in front of our CCO, Barbie.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Thanks!
- ahkurtz 8y ago
  So you've never heard this before or won't comment here?
  - pritianka 8y ago
    "Additionally, the calculator's attempt to handle cost of living fails to address hot markets outside the US (hello from Montreal), treats many countries as way more homogeneous in cost of living than they really are, and gives a seemingly quite inadequate 17% adjustment for contractors. That doesn't cover legal and accounting fees, paid time off of various types, the cost and limitations in health insurance coverage attainable by one-person companies, normally employer-side retirement contributions, etc." I, personally, did not know about the way we treat intl comp on the calculator because I do not work in people ops. I found it useful new information.
    - ahkurtz 8y ago
      Thank you. I understand. I know PR is difficult and I really value the candor. I am very concerned personally about what Gitlab represents for my industry, but if you are all willing to speak directly to challenges on it that goes a very long way. I hope you can understand also why people have these concerns. It seems to me that the reverse of your policy would be best for the world. If you free people to move, they can choose community, friends, family, politics over being tied to a single geographic location where most of the activity is. This would help with availability of technologists in many disadvantaged locales, and would provide an influx of taxable income and consumer spending locally. This should have the ultimate effect of improving economic conditions in depressed areas, and when that happens you can actually come back and reduce everyone's wages across all locales because the economy is healthier and more robust. It works out for the owners too in the end, if they take a long enough view.
      - Vinnl 8y ago
        > If you free people to move I guess it depends on your perspective whether this is the case. With the current policy, if the implementation works, GitLab employees should be free to move anywhere without sacrificing anything in terms of living conditions. If you live somewhere with low costs of living, you can move to your community in an area with higher costs of living, without noticing in the amount of things you can purchase. The same holds true when you move to an area with lower costs of living, but of course, you'd get paid less.
  - pritianka 8y ago
    No problem at all and glad you find the candor useful. It is one of our company values to be transparent :-). I also hear you in your concern. There is a flip side perspective to what you are saying as well where someone might be forced to uproot from their home which happens to be in a more expensive area because they would save so much elsewhere. But regardless of the specific arguments, what I have truly learned here in this thread is that we should continue the conversation in the community. I am going to sync up with the people ops org and suggest that we share our rationale in more detail in the near future and/or also incorporate the good points that were raised. I do think it is amazing that GitLab brings these conversations to the fore because opacity has been the norm for way too long around comp and we need to change that as an industry and community.
    - ahkurtz 8y ago
      For me, in this case, the specific arguments are exactly what matters. If your company claims a solid economic rationale they should provide one. I'm not sure how it's possible you've had this policy this long and can't come out swinging on this topic. Claiming fairness vaguely is not enough to gain goodwill. It's easy to assume greed and desire for control over employees in this remuneration policy, and I'm quite happy to make that argument if your company needs that feedback. You probably don't want people like me in your company, because I am annoying, but I do have a lot of diverse experience and an abiding concern for the health of my company and coworkers. If this policy doesn't reflect a deep level of antipathy about contributors (currently) high wages, and if the company would reverse this policy in considerance, people like me would be in the door tomorrow - thousands of us. You recently hired someone I love and deeply respect professionally, so I hope your company plans to take good care of them. They deserve it, and you do to. Everyone deserves it, especially if they can make it in the door in this new economy. I'm arguing for you too, you personally, if you can see that. End "brain-drain" in USA (and its associated economic spheres).
giobox 8y ago
I also find this methodology for paying engineers concerning. It’s been a while since I last played with it, but I recall finding the results from gitlab’s publicly accessible regional salary calculator producing some pretty absurd results in the Bay Area. I live 45 minutes from San Jose, and expect remuneration at levels commensurate with my title and experience for the Bay Area in general, as should anyone dealing with cost of living issues here. The gitlab calculator however thinks I should earn 35k less, which feels like a punishment for trying to live somewhere commutable that I can, you know, actually afford to buy a house large enough for a normal family. If I live in commute range of the same location, why pay me 35 grand less? Should I apologise for my less desirable zip code? > https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/developer/ https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/developer/ (scroll down lots for the calculator)
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > If I live in commute range of the same location, why pay me 35 grand less? If you are doing location-based pay at all, you can't really apply his rule because very large areas are connected by within-commute-distance links such that if you never distinguished places within commute distance by pay you'd essentially eliminate location-based-pay other than across high-friction borders or places that are (either in fact or at least for transit purposes) isolated islands.
  - giobox 8y ago
    A fair counterpoint, but if the methodology creates results that do not reflect market reality, it’s arguably not fit for purpose. I do think that much of that can be mitigated with more sensible “region” factors, but that would greatly increase the complexity of the process. Setting remuneration fairly is a hard problem, but this is arguably not a great solution either.
- detaro 8y ago
  I was wondering that too (since the calculator seems to think everything in Germany outside a few large metros is supposed to cost the same, which is ... unrealistic) and found https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... > GitLabbers may select any metro area within one hour and forty-five minutes of their residence when determining their geographical area

pritianka 8y ago

This is really useful information. Thanks for sharing. I will put this in front of our CCO, Barbie.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Thanks!
ahkurtz 8y ago
So you've never heard this before or won't comment here?
- pritianka 8y ago
  "Additionally, the calculator's attempt to handle cost of living fails to address hot markets outside the US (hello from Montreal), treats many countries as way more homogeneous in cost of living than they really are, and gives a seemingly quite inadequate 17% adjustment for contractors. That doesn't cover legal and accounting fees, paid time off of various types, the cost and limitations in health insurance coverage attainable by one-person companies, normally employer-side retirement contributions, etc." I, personally, did not know about the way we treat intl comp on the calculator because I do not work in people ops. I found it useful new information.
  - ahkurtz 8y ago
    Thank you. I understand. I know PR is difficult and I really value the candor. I am very concerned personally about what Gitlab represents for my industry, but if you are all willing to speak directly to challenges on it that goes a very long way. I hope you can understand also why people have these concerns. It seems to me that the reverse of your policy would be best for the world. If you free people to move, they can choose community, friends, family, politics over being tied to a single geographic location where most of the activity is. This would help with availability of technologists in many disadvantaged locales, and would provide an influx of taxable income and consumer spending locally. This should have the ultimate effect of improving economic conditions in depressed areas, and when that happens you can actually come back and reduce everyone's wages across all locales because the economy is healthier and more robust. It works out for the owners too in the end, if they take a long enough view.
    - Vinnl 8y ago
      > If you free people to move I guess it depends on your perspective whether this is the case. With the current policy, if the implementation works, GitLab employees should be free to move anywhere without sacrificing anything in terms of living conditions. If you live somewhere with low costs of living, you can move to your community in an area with higher costs of living, without noticing in the amount of things you can purchase. The same holds true when you move to an area with lower costs of living, but of course, you'd get paid less.
- pritianka 8y ago
  No problem at all and glad you find the candor useful. It is one of our company values to be transparent :-). I also hear you in your concern. There is a flip side perspective to what you are saying as well where someone might be forced to uproot from their home which happens to be in a more expensive area because they would save so much elsewhere. But regardless of the specific arguments, what I have truly learned here in this thread is that we should continue the conversation in the community. I am going to sync up with the people ops org and suggest that we share our rationale in more detail in the near future and/or also incorporate the good points that were raised. I do think it is amazing that GitLab brings these conversations to the fore because opacity has been the norm for way too long around comp and we need to change that as an industry and community.
  - ahkurtz 8y ago
    For me, in this case, the specific arguments are exactly what matters. If your company claims a solid economic rationale they should provide one. I'm not sure how it's possible you've had this policy this long and can't come out swinging on this topic. Claiming fairness vaguely is not enough to gain goodwill. It's easy to assume greed and desire for control over employees in this remuneration policy, and I'm quite happy to make that argument if your company needs that feedback. You probably don't want people like me in your company, because I am annoying, but I do have a lot of diverse experience and an abiding concern for the health of my company and coworkers. If this policy doesn't reflect a deep level of antipathy about contributors (currently) high wages, and if the company would reverse this policy in considerance, people like me would be in the door tomorrow - thousands of us. You recently hired someone I love and deeply respect professionally, so I hope your company plans to take good care of them. They deserve it, and you do to. Everyone deserves it, especially if they can make it in the door in this new economy. I'm arguing for you too, you personally, if you can see that. End "brain-drain" in USA (and its associated economic spheres).

giobox 8y ago

I also find this methodology for paying engineers concerning. It’s been a while since I last played with it, but I recall finding the results from gitlab’s publicly accessible regional salary calculator producing some pretty absurd results in the Bay Area. I live 45 minutes from San Jose, and expect remuneration at levels commensurate with my title and experience for the Bay Area in general, as should anyone dealing with cost of living issues here. The gitlab calculator however thinks I should earn 35k less, which feels like a punishment for trying to live somewhere commutable that I can, you know, actually afford to buy a house large enough for a normal family. If I live in commute range of the same location, why pay me 35 grand less? Should I apologise for my less desirable zip code? > https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/developer/ https://about.gitlab.com/job-families/engineering/developer/ (scroll down lots for the calculator)

dragonwriter 8y ago
> If I live in commute range of the same location, why pay me 35 grand less? If you are doing location-based pay at all, you can't really apply his rule because very large areas are connected by within-commute-distance links such that if you never distinguished places within commute distance by pay you'd essentially eliminate location-based-pay other than across high-friction borders or places that are (either in fact or at least for transit purposes) isolated islands.
- giobox 8y ago
  A fair counterpoint, but if the methodology creates results that do not reflect market reality, it’s arguably not fit for purpose. I do think that much of that can be mitigated with more sensible “region” factors, but that would greatly increase the complexity of the process. Setting remuneration fairly is a hard problem, but this is arguably not a great solution either.
detaro 8y ago
I was wondering that too (since the calculator seems to think everything in Germany outside a few large metros is supposed to cost the same, which is ... unrealistic) and found https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-compensation/#paying-local-rates https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c... > GitLabbers may select any metro area within one hour and forty-five minutes of their residence when determining their geographical area