4 ms·

More like: "In a political context gathering data is not at all a guaranteed way to get further to the truth." I don't want to make a case for dismissing an em

More like: "In a political context gathering data is not at all a guaranteed way to get further to the truth." I don't want to make a case for dismissing an empirical approach per se! An current example from Germany right now: There's a part of the country that's in uproar because of new immigrants that came in 2015. Some people felt threatened and demanded more police in public spaces were immigrant youth gathers. So more police is present at those public spaces. Naturally this resulted in them being aware of more violent events (mostly groups of immigrant kids scuffling), which made the immigrant share of violent crimes double, and people feel "rightfully" afraid, as the stats now proof their suspicions! But the reality of course is that German kids have fights in public, too; police just didn't take note and so those fights don't end up in the data gathered.

darawk 8y ago
> More like: "In a political context gathering data is not at all a guaranteed way to get further to the truth." It's not guaranteed, no. But it's the only way we have any hope of it. > An current example from Germany right now: There's a part of the country that's in uproar because of new immigrants that came in 2015. Some people felt threatened and demanded more police in public spaces were immigrant youth gathers. So more police is present at those public spaces. Naturally this resulted in them being aware of more violent events (mostly groups of immigrant kids scuffling), which made the immigrant share of violent crimes double, and people feel "rightfully" afraid, as the stats now proof their suspicions! But the reality of course is that German kids have fights in public, too; police just didn't take note and so those fights don't end up in the data gathered. Is that actually true, though? I'm not familiar with the figures, but it's not unreasonable to imagine there may genuinely be more violent incidents among migrants from a war torn region like that. There were certainly serious cultural assimilation problems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaul...
08-15 8y ago
> But the reality of course is that German kids have fights in public, too Not deadly knife fights, though. We don't want to erase the difference between brutal murder (25 stab wounds) and "a scuffle", do we?
- bildung 8y ago
  Well, this isn't about murder. Murder rates didn't raise, but statistics for scuffles did. In both cases this is about crimes among immigrants, though, not about crimes of immigrants against Germans.
  - 08-15 8y ago
    > In both cases this is about crimes among immigrants, though Does that make it less of a problem?
    - bildung 8y ago
      Yes, as the entire point of this thread is problematic application of data in a political context. The data is violent crime stats. The false interpretation is fear of the native polulation. The native population is not affected by the violence, ergo the fear is misplaced. That you brought up the murder in the first place is exactly the misuse of statistics I spoke of. About 400 people get murdered every year in Germany, and you bring up exactly the one recent case were the suspects are immigrants.

darawk 8y ago

> More like: "In a political context gathering data is not at all a guaranteed way to get further to the truth." It's not guaranteed, no. But it's the only way we have any hope of it. > An current example from Germany right now: There's a part of the country that's in uproar because of new immigrants that came in 2015. Some people felt threatened and demanded more police in public spaces were immigrant youth gathers. So more police is present at those public spaces. Naturally this resulted in them being aware of more violent events (mostly groups of immigrant kids scuffling), which made the immigrant share of violent crimes double, and people feel "rightfully" afraid, as the stats now proof their suspicions! But the reality of course is that German kids have fights in public, too; police just didn't take note and so those fights don't end up in the data gathered. Is that actually true, though? I'm not familiar with the figures, but it's not unreasonable to imagine there may genuinely be more violent incidents among migrants from a war torn region like that. There were certainly serious cultural assimilation problems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaul...

08-15 8y ago

> But the reality of course is that German kids have fights in public, too Not deadly knife fights, though. We don't want to erase the difference between brutal murder (25 stab wounds) and "a scuffle", do we?

bildung 8y ago
Well, this isn't about murder. Murder rates didn't raise, but statistics for scuffles did. In both cases this is about crimes among immigrants, though, not about crimes of immigrants against Germans.
- 08-15 8y ago
  > In both cases this is about crimes among immigrants, though Does that make it less of a problem?
  - bildung 8y ago
    Yes, as the entire point of this thread is problematic application of data in a political context. The data is violent crime stats. The false interpretation is fear of the native polulation. The native population is not affected by the violence, ergo the fear is misplaced. That you brought up the murder in the first place is exactly the misuse of statistics I spoke of. About 400 people get murdered every year in Germany, and you bring up exactly the one recent case were the suspects are immigrants.